Classic Empire

[Left Bank]

Does anyone have an update on the horse ? He veered at the start and was vanned off in the Hopeful.

[RHT2004]

Originally Posted by Left Bank

Does anyone have an update on the horse ? He veered at the start and was vanned off in the Hopeful.

He's fine back at the barn. Per Casse twitter.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by RHT2004

He's fine back at the barn. Per Casse twitter.

Takes a lot to be good horse. Casse said on ATR's he will get blinkers in next start. Let's hope its the solution to the problem or even if there is a problem. Totally possible it was a one off, I wouldnt bet on that being the case, but you never know.

Colt was doomed after my buddy Ed DeRosa tweeted he was the next TC winner, Ed was being cheeky.

Let's hope he isnt a Tap it Out lost cause. Guess all PoTN colts arent sweet pets after all

[Left Bank]

Originally Posted by RHT2004

He's fine back at the barn. Per Casse twitter.

Thank You!

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Takes a lot to be good horse. Casse said on ATR's he will get blinkers in next start. Let's hope its the solution to the problem or even if there is a problem. Totally possible it was a one off, I wouldnt bet on that being the case, but you never know.

Colt was doomed after my buddy Ed DeRosa tweeted he was the next TC winner, Ed was being cheeky.

Let's hope he isnt a Tap it Out lost cause. Guess all PoTN colts arent sweet pets after all

He propped because of that other starting gate that was lined up against the fence. Should not have been stationed there.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Kasept

He propped because of that other starting gate that was lined up against the fence. Should not have been stationed there.

I guess.. The other horses didnt seem to mind the misplaced gate. Promising colt lets see him get past this, hopefully connects figure it out..It could be something serious or something that never shows up again?? I will root for him in next start but from a wagering point of view I wouldnt ever bet/use him next out. That whole "he is too smart" jargon is theoretic nonsense.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by freddymo

I guess.. The other horses didnt seem to mind the misplaced gate. Promising colt lets see him get past this, hopefully connects figure it out..It could be something serious or something that never shows up again?? I will root for him in next start but from a wagering point of view I wouldnt ever bet/use him next out. That whole "he is too smart" jargon is theoretic nonsense.

Horses are individuals. Does every horse balk behind the gate when loading? By your reasoning, if one does, all should.

Casse, who after re-watching the race agrees that the gate was the culprit, told me this morning that Classic Empire worked in blinkers and went super.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Horses are individuals. Does every horse balk behind the gate when loading? By your reasoning, if one does, all should.

Casse, who after re-watching the race agrees that the gate was the culprit, told me this morning that Classic Empire worked in blinkers and went super.

Not sure I remotely concur with your analogy. We see tons of horses continually balk behind gate and be unsettled, washout etc. their whole careers and still be successful. We witnessed a denial to run from this "individual", lets just say this herd animal elected not to advance with the herd. If you and Casse are OK with suggesting that a misplaced gate was the culprit, OK. We both watch a lot of races, we rarely see a complete refusal from a horse albeit a 2 year old with a few successful starts. As for Casse telling you" he went super". I think we should keep in mind (a little) that this is a valuable colt and being 100% forthcoming MIGHT or MIGHT NOT be the agenda. Not suggesting Casse is lying at ALL, just I would take a wait in see approach. Baffert told us Tap It Rich was OK working great yada yada.

I am a fan I want to see him do well! Will see

[Kasept]

OK Freddy.. Will rely on your strong Twitter contacts to keep us informed.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Kasept

OK Freddy.. Will rely on your strong Twitter contacts to keep us informed.

As perhaps your most devoted longest listener that's simply not the point. Nobody is suggesting Casse is lying, nobody is saying the horse wasn't spooked by the foreign misplaced gate. Let's keep in mind, it was a G1 at a racetrack with a highly competent staff, with the eyes of the racing world watching, so the notion that this gate faux pas was so divisive to a horses chances is really something to question. Seems to me the staff there wouldn't be so cavalier right before a G1 and try something new ,but perhaps a human made an error..It happens? My GUESS is the gate has been left there before and never was considered to be a hindrance, but I REALLY DONT KNOW

Classic Empire has had issues in his previous races, I am sure this is not news to many of us that follow the game. Those issues have escalated not mitigated. I started this by saying for as much as I KNOW it could have been a 1 off miscue.

I think its important to be objective and from were I stand the colt is a nut case that freaked out. That's not a knock on Casse's amazing operation. That colt ran 30 yards and stopped on a dime like a well trained barrel runner, because he saw Jesus would have been more plausible then seeing through the colt to right side but I really don't know.

As a fan that loves good fast sound horses, nothing would make me happier than to see him win the TC and never have another issue again. StartergateGate does not sound plausible to me.

[Kasept]

Actually, you suggested quite directly that Casse may be lying saying how the horse worked today. And you can say whatever you want, but it's 100% plausible that the presence of the other gate spooked him. The 2nd gate is stationed there frequently but probably shouldn't be for just this reason. What about the horse that was leading in the stretch a few weeks ago and spooked from the bird flying across the course or whatever caught his attention? The rest of the field wasn't affected, was it? Their eyes are on the side of their head (not in front) for a reason deigned by nature. In this endeavor, it can work against them.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Actually, you suggested quite directly that Casse may be lying saying how the horse worked today. And you can say whatever you want, but it's 100% plausible that the presence of the other gate spooked him. The 2nd gate is stationed there frequently but probably shouldn't be for just this reason. What about the horse that was leading in the stretch a few weeks ago and spooked from the bird flying across the course or whatever caught his attention? The rest of the field wasn't affected, was it? Their eyes are on the side of their head (not in front) for a reason deigned by nature. In this endeavor, it can work against them.

I watched the replay 10 times...The gate is 40/50 plus yards in front of him and 30 yards to the right. First he broke poorly again with his head cocked to rail, once straighten out he simply refuses. This is not a jumper refusing 2 feet in front of an oxer because he knows he cant make it.

Let's be objective. Colt schools in gate all the time. Colt just warmed up past gate seconds before race. Colt passes gates and like structures in morning work almost daily for months. To suggest that the colt was spooked by an object he sees every day is well suspect. Possible I guess but seems counter intuitive to what his trainer suggested about him right. Said he was a very smart horse? Ok so now we have a VERY smart colt schooled by a first class barn at first class facilities by terrific staff and we go with the very smart colt was spooked by something he just warmed up next too and loaded into and came out of and has been part of his life for 6 months.

The plausible theory is what his head was cocked to the rail, he was left as usual, jock straighten him out and lo and behold he caught sight of the same blue thing he just came out of and loaded into without incident and was scared into a dead stop...OK If that works for you..

I am going to go with Tap it Out, 85ina50 and a bunch of other super talented types that brains didnt match physical make up.

Again you know I hope I am wrong I love good horses

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by freddymo

N As for Casse telling you" he went super". I think we should keep in mind (a little) that this is a valuable colt and being 100% forthcoming MIGHT or MIGHT NOT be the agenda. Not suggesting Casse is lying at ALL, just I would take a wait in see approach.

Not sure if there was some miscommunication with regards to working with blinkers, but Classic Empire did not have a published workout on 9/07 nor has he had one since.

Also, something left out of this surprisingly sober (for Freddy) discussion was that Classic Empire was noted to be lame when inspected following the incident (hence he was vanned off). He is currently on the NYRA Vet List (accessible on the NYRA website) listed as "unsound".

Curiously, runner-up Royal Copy also made the Vet List coming out of the race, listed as "injured". And Runway Lute fell past the wire, but was allowed to walk off and did not make the Vet List.

An "unusual" Hopeful as Larry Colmus said...

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Not sure if there was some miscommunication with regards to working with blinkers, but Classic Empire did not have a published workout on 9/07 nor has he had one since.

Also, something left out of this surprisingly sober (for Freddy) discussion was that Classic Empire was noted to be lame when inspected following the incident (hence he was vanned off). He is currently on the NYRA Vet List (accessible on the NYRA website) listed as "unsound".

Curiously, runner-up Royal Copy also made the Vet List coming out of the race, listed as "injured". And Runway Lute fell past the wire, but was allowed to walk off and did not make the Vet List.

An "unusual" Hopeful as Larry Colmus said...

Can a horse be deemed as "unsound" because they refused to race/mental case? Or does it have to be physical ailments?

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Can a horse be deemed as "unsound" because they refused to race/mental case? Or does it have to be physical ailments?

I presume its at the discretion of the examining veterinarian. Although such a horse as you describe would probably go on the Stewards or the Starters list before the Vet List.

Nevertheless , according to the DRF article on the race, the NYRA veterinarian said Classic Empire was showing lameness, so some sort of physical ailment was a factor.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

I presume its at the discretion of the examining veterinarian. Although such a horse as you describe would probably go on the Stewards or the Starters list before the Vet List.

Nevertheless , according to the DRF article on the race, the NYRA veterinarian said Classic Empire was showing lameness, so some sort of physical ailment was a factor.

I dont know, but I heard with my own ear's Mark Casse suggest the colt was fine and had worked well. Perhaps he was confused with exactly which of his 300 head had just worked? I just dont know seems awfully particular

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by freddymo

I dont know, but I heard with my own ear's Mark Casse suggest the colt was fine and had worked well. Perhaps he was confused with exactly which of his 300 head had just worked? I just dont know seems awfully particular

Well a grand total of 13 horses had recorded workouts at Saratoga on September 7 so I guess its possible it was missed. Maybe all the clockers skipped town as soon as the meet was over.

[freddymo]

Maybe it was an unpublished ?
Classic Empire
Date
Track
Dist
Time
Surf
Cond.
B/H
Gate
06/19/2016 CD 5F :59.60 Dirt Fast B
06/25/2016 CD 4F :47.60 Dirt Fast B
07/22/2016 CD 4F :46.40 Dirt Fast B
08/04/2016 SAR 4F :49.56 Dirt Fast B
08/12/2016 SAR 5F 1:01.14 Dirt Fast B
08/19/2016 SAR 5F 1:00.98 Dirt Fast B
08/27/2016 SAR 4F :48.32 Dirt Fast B

[freddymo]

Per Norman Casse tweeter colt worked from gate in blinkers and he used the word great to describe it.