Tom Noonan blog

[cmorioles]

There was plenty of love here for Mr. Noonan when he (rightfully IMO) defended NYRA.

How about his blog post on drug use?

http://tenoonan.com/2013/12/08/time-...t-of-the-sand/

[freddymo]

Remember when Dutrow told reporters. "I give all my horses Winstrol once a month" Kind of the same crap.

[cmorioles]

This is a big thing if you ask me. We can't be giving horses drugs as an experiment. That will not go over well with the public. They should be used to treat something, period.

[parsixfarms]

This sort of view on the Baffert situation is the real problem: http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-121...#axzz2n4vhFwAj.

So long as the racing media and many of the sport's "leaders" act as if guys like Baffert and Pletcher are bigger than the sport and look the other way, there is an open field for the Joe Drapes of the world to address the issues that they want to ignore.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

This sort of view on the Baffert situation is the real problem: http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-121...#axzz2n4vhFwAj.

So long as the racing media and many of the sport's "leaders" act as if guys like Baffert and Pletcher are bigger than the sport and look the other way, there is an open field for the Joe Drapes of the world to address the issues that they want to ignore.

They are bigger than the sport for the most part. They are our "too big to fail" banks.

The essential issue here is that very few people have any clue as to what health issues are for racehorses or what options exist for their treatment. How people can come to conclusions about what should be done without any real understanding of the issue at hand, just the preception of the issue, seems to be a recipe for disaster.

Ok Baffert was giving his horses thyroid powder and he stopped and they stopped croaking. Must be indiscriminate use of thyroid powder right? Well why don't any other trainers horses die form this? I have used thyroid powder on hundreds of horses and none died. I don't know another trainer or vet who has ever had horse die due to thyroid powder. I do know that if I was using something that I believed potentially was causing my horses to die I'd much rather have something relatively innocuous like thyrol-L take the blame rather than the real culprit. The conclusion drawn is that he was giving thyroid powder to all his horses and it caused 7 to die because Rick Arthur mentioned it as unusual but he did so in releasing a report stating that there was no smoking gun.

The "17 shots" the Pletcher horse got over the period of time are also hardly something that a vet wouldn't prescribe or directly caused any issues.

-1 of the shots was for Adequan which is preventative medicine
-3 of the shots were for Hylauronic acid in the stifles. This is a single procedure done 5-7 days before the race and three shots are required because the joint is large and splitting the does into three areas works better so that the entire joint is lubricated. Horses dont die from broken stifles.
-2 of the shots were sedatives used to calm the horse to allow the vet to do the procedure on the stifles safely.
-2 of the shots were for banamine which is an anti-inflammatory medications. -1 of these banamine shots would be given when doing the procedure on the stifles to lessen the potential of inflammation in the area where the needle goes into the joint. The other was given 48 hours before.
-2 of the shots given were lasix and based on another medication given prerace it appears that the horse had a history of bleeding as 1 was given a week out when the horse presumably had his last work before the race.
-1 was dexamethasone/cortisone also an anti-inflammatory given when work was done on the stifles.
-1 was Estrone which is a hormone given 48 hours before race to help prevent bleeding.
-2 the last 2 shots were for vitamin B-1 and for Calcium which help calm a horse before the race.

So I'm sure that some will be aghast at all those shots being given but they all have a viable reason for being used and the vast majority of them were given during one procedure. The horse appeared to have stifle issues and bled. Often stifle issues are due to conformation issues and dont just go away with rest. The idea that a vet was somehow forced into doing these treatments is simply not reality. There is this misconception that horses are either sound or unsound like a black and white deal. Truth is that they all deal with unsoundness of some degree at some point. It may be as simple as a grabbed quarter but when they arent sound they need treatment. Horses with not so great conformation will need more help as the concussion absorbed by their legs is distributed through the leg in a less than ideal manner.

[cmorioles]

Two things...first, I don't think many really believe the Baffert horses died because of the thyroid stuff. It is just a convenient excuse. Two, I have no doubt horses are being given stuff they don't need way more often than they should. There is plenty of training via chemistry going on, and it is going to blow up in the sport's face eventually.

As for the horses with 17 shots, explained or not, that is never going to sound good to the public. Like it or not we need to worry about image as much as reality, and that image sucks.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Two things...first, I don't think many really believe the Baffert horses died because of the thyroid stuff. It is just a convenient excuse. Two, I have no doubt horses are being given stuff they don't need way more often than they should. There is plenty of training via chemistry going on, and it is going to blow up in the sport's face eventually.

As for the horses with 17 shots, explained or not, that is never going to sound good to the public. Like it or not we need to worry about image as much as reality, and that image sucks.

The training via chemistry has nothing to do with banamine or vitamin B1 and calcium shots. It is like cracking down on crime by lowering speed limits.

I dont think that the public is ever going to believe the game is on the up and up. We more or less took steroid usage out of the game and it not only didnt make a dent it never even gets a mention. There is never going to be a 100% clean situation and the USADA and its tactics will assure that the perception survives. As long as any horses break down and trainers get positive tests or even short priced favorites lose or longshots come in the public will believe what they believe.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Two things...first, I don't think many really believe the Baffert horses died because of the thyroid stuff. It is just a convenient excuse. Two, I have no doubt horses are being given stuff they don't need way more often than they should. There is plenty of training via chemistry going on, and it is going to blow up in the sport's face eventually.

As for the horses with 17 shots, explained or not, that is never going to sound good to the public. Like it or not we need to worry about image as much as reality, and that image sucks.

but we don't need to skip treating horses because people with no clue think that shots are a problem.
if racing really wanted to clean up, they'd quit letting repeat offenders stay in the game. change fine structures to percentage of money won, instead of a flat fee. there has to be consequences to make people stop doing what they're doing.
problem is, any time you find a test, someone comes up with a new drug that works til they get a new test.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Danzig

but we don't need to skip treating horses because people with no clue think that shots are a problem.
if racing really wanted to clean up, they'd quit letting repeat offenders stay in the game. change fine structures to percentage of money won, instead of a flat fee. there has to be consequences to make people stop doing what they're doing.
problem is, any time you find a test, someone comes up with a new drug that works til they get a new test.

Agreed, there are a lot of things that could be done. Perception means a lot, and if the things you mention were done and made very public, people might actually believe the sport is at least trying to be clean.

Right now, most people that support the game don't even think it is clean...why should onlookers?

[cmorioles]

Nothing has a worse history than the Tour de France. But they stepped things up and are testing more often and for more advanced drugs. Cheaters are being severely punished.

Even though the Armstrong circus just closed recently, the Tour did an about face with regards to image. True or not, for now people believe it was a clean Tour in 2013. Horse racing could learn a thing or two from this.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Nothing has a worse history than the Tour de France. But they stepped things up and are testing more often and for more advanced drugs. Cheaters are being severely punished.

Even though the Armstrong circus just closed recently, the Tour did an about face with regards to image. True or not, for now people believe it was a clean Tour in 2013. Horse racing could learn a thing or two from this.

The 7 people who still follow cycling? Or all the sponsors that bailed out and havent returned?

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

The 7 people who still follow cycling? Or all the sponsors that bailed out and haven't returned?

I'm talking globally, not in the US. You trying to say cracking down hasn't helped? Because it has, image wise. People and sponsors aren't going to flock back overnight.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

I'm talking globally, not in the US. You trying to say cracking down hasn't helped? Because it has, image wise. People and sponsors aren't going to flock back overnight.

I look at sports like the NFL and MLB which have had drug issues but do a great job in controlling the message. We are talking about image and racing has done a horrible job of protecting its image whether its problems are real, imagined, exaggerated or valid. Look at NBA players and ask yourself if they wouldn't benefit from PED's? You know why the NBA has virtually no PED problem? Because the league and players union keeps the entire process confidential.

People dont complain about or be outraged about things that it doesnt know about.

The other sports, when they have an issue, they come up with a answer that sounds good in the publics eyes and move along as fast as they can. Most of the time the public moves on as well. Racing seems stuck in this constant negative cycle and despite the nonsense that is supposedly going to save the sport nothing is going to stop horses from breaking down or requiring modern veterinarian care. There are always going to be people that push the limits.

This idea that we can break the sport down with some great purge and rebuild it again is pie in the sky bs. I'm sick of seeing training geniuses pop up out of nowhere and see the smug look on the owners who create them as they stroll down to the winners circle again. Most of us have no problem ridding the game as best as possible of these types via whatever legal means allowable. However what is being proposed is a blanket condemnation on all trainers, all vets and all modern medicine. It doesnt matter what you do, who regulates the sport or what the rules are if a horse breakdown at the top of the stretch in the Derby and causes a pileup no one is going to believe that anything has changed. Does that mean that changes shouldnt be made and that the "status quo" is fine? Of course not but Tom Noonan and others with no idea what they are proposing except "change" are hardly the right answer.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

I'm talking globally, not in the US. You trying to say cracking down hasn't helped? Because it has, image wise. People and sponsors aren't going to flock back overnight.

I never knew they cracked down in that sport.

[Rudeboyelvis]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

I never knew they cracked down in that sport.

Teams, like Slipstream, began to self-police their riders. They do not test for anything specific or try to stay up to pace with the cheaters to figure out what they are using - they simply draw urine and blood from their riders and the compare the results against baseline blood chemistry measurements. So in other words, it doesn't matter what you are using. Any measurement that exceeds a baseline threshold will get you suspended or fired from the team - first offense. No bullsh1t.

One would think that it shouldn't be that difficult to institute a similar procedure in horse racing, at least for performance-enhancing drugs.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

They are bigger than the sport for the most part. They are our "too big to fail" banks.

The essential issue here is that very few people have any clue as to what health issues are for racehorses or what options exist for their treatment. How people can come to conclusions about what should be done without any real understanding of the issue at hand, just the preception of the issue, seems to be a recipe for disaster.

Ok Baffert was giving his horses thyroid powder and he stopped and they stopped croaking. Must be indiscriminate use of thyroid powder right? Well why don't any other trainers horses die form this? I have used thyroid powder on hundreds of horses and none died. I don't know another trainer or vet who has ever had horse die due to thyroid powder. I do know that if I was using something that I believed potentially was causing my horses to die I'd much rather have something relatively innocuous like thyrol-L take the blame rather than the real culprit. The conclusion drawn is that he was giving thyroid powder to all his horses and it caused 7 to die because Rick Arthur mentioned it as unusual but he did so in releasing a report stating that there was no smoking gun.

The "17 shots" the Pletcher horse got over the period of time are also hardly something that a vet wouldn't prescribe or directly caused any issues.

-1 of the shots was for Adequan which is preventative medicine
-3 of the shots were for Hylauronic acid in the stifles. This is a single procedure done 5-7 days before the race and three shots are required because the joint is large and splitting the does into three areas works better so that the entire joint is lubricated. Horses dont die from broken stifles.
-2 of the shots were sedatives used to calm the horse to allow the vet to do the procedure on the stifles safely.
-2 of the shots were for banamine which is an anti-inflammatory medications. -1 of these banamine shots would be given when doing the procedure on the stifles to lessen the potential of inflammation in the area where the needle goes into the joint. The other was given 48 hours before.
-2 of the shots given were lasix and based on another medication given prerace it appears that the horse had a history of bleeding as 1 was given a week out when the horse presumably had his last work before the race.
-1 was dexamethasone/cortisone also an anti-inflammatory given when work was done on the stifles.
-1 was Estrone which is a hormone given 48 hours before race to help prevent bleeding.
-2 the last 2 shots were for vitamin B-1 and for Calcium which help calm a horse before the race.

So I'm sure that some will be aghast at all those shots being given but they all have a viable reason for being used and the vast majority of them were given during one procedure. The horse appeared to have stifle issues and bled. Often stifle issues are due to conformation issues and dont just go away with rest. The idea that a vet was somehow forced into doing these treatments is simply not reality. There is this misconception that horses are either sound or unsound like a black and white deal. Truth is that they all deal with unsoundness of some degree at some point. It may be as simple as a grabbed quarter but when they arent sound they need treatment. Horses with not so great conformation will need more help as the concussion absorbed by their legs is distributed through the leg in a less than ideal manner.

My son went to the Dr. for a check up.. 4 injections as part of standard vaccination program. He is 60lbs. The issue is people do not understand that caring for a 1200 pound animal is different then a human being. That said CJ is a million percent correct its all about perception.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by freddymo

My son went to the Dr. for a check up.. 4 injections as part of standard vaccination program. He is 60lbs. The issue is people do not understand that caring for a 1200 pound animal is different then a human being. That said CJ is a million percent correct its all about perception.

sad but true. probably explains why you have people like jenny mccarthy ranting against vaccinations.

people are lazy and don't like to scratch the surface of a topic. you tell them 'horse got 17 shots' and they're horrified.
you tell them it's akin to going to your doctor and getting a shot for your shoulder, knee or back and they'd get it. i think.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by freddymo

My son went to the Dr. for a check up.. 4 injections as part of standard vaccination program. He is 60lbs. The issue is people do not understand that caring for a 1200 pound animal is different then a human being. That said CJ is a million percent correct its all about perception.

If it is about perception (and I dont disagree) than there is almost no possible way of doing this worse than the way this topic has been handled by racing.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Danzig

sad but true. probably explains why you have people like jenny mccarthy ranting against vaccinations.

people are lazy and don't like to scratch the surface of a topic. you tell them 'horse got 17 shots' and they're horrified.
you tell them it's akin to going to your doctor and getting a shot for your shoulder, knee or back and they'd get it. i think.

And that is the trick about perception. You just have to treat whatever it is you are "against" as though it is some horrible occurrence and most people will go along with it. It isnt a accident that politicians are involved. This is how they operate.

[dellinger63]

Curious, what's the cost of those 17 shots?