Street Sense Number

[philcski]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Isn't it also worth noting that the fast figure was earned under optimal conditions...i.e. sitting off a fast pace and making a move up a strong rail?

Of course. Still a great number, but the perfect trip probably aided it a couple points.

All I know about this guy is he's a quality horse and I feel stupid for not going with my gut instinct that he was the best value in the race off a poorly timed run at KEE and instead just taking the more "cowardly" method of inclusion in a multirace bet.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Isn't it also worth noting that the fast figure was earned under optimal conditions...i.e. sitting off a fast pace and making a move up a strong rail?

I think that that is surely worth noting. I thought that just about every Breeders Cup winner had a perfect trip with the exception of Invasor who had a pretty good one. Dreaming of Anna got an unexpected easy lead. Street Sense got through on the rail. OB got a dream trip. Thors Echo was in an ideal position. Red Rocks got the first run and saved ground around the turns. Round Pond got a perfect pocket trip behind a fast pace with 2 contenders failing to complete the course. Miesques approval ran really well considering he passed pretty much the whole field and outkicked the kickers. He would have had probably the toughest trip of all the winners.

[KY_Sasquash]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Needing wraps and using wraps are two different things. Afleet Alex always ran in wraps.. what of it?

Running the big effort isn't the issue... Running back too soon after the effort IS... Carl Nafzger is again, the difference here.

Keyed Entry ran on that horrible sloppy track at Gulfstream which also ruined First Samurai, and then ran back way too soon in the Gotham (?)...

Second of June ran back as well after the FOY and wasn't even three at the time yet (chronologically)...

FuSam.. who cares?

Nafzger will turn this colt out and give him every minute he needs to recover.

Also, Keyed Entry and First Samurai both had distance limitations. They were better suited for a mile or 8.5F and so where the sires (yes I remember GC in the BC Classic getting 10F-that was done on heart and talent) Street Sense has a better shot at 10F being by Street Cry, who won the Dubai World Cup and the Stephen Foster.

[Bigsmc]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I think that that is surely worth noting. I thought that just about every Breeders Cup winner had a perfect trip with the exception of Invasor who had a pretty good one. Dreaming of Anna got an unexpected easy lead. Street Sense got through on the rail. OB got a dream trip. Thors Echo was in an ideal position. Red Rocks got the first run and saved ground around the turns. Round Pond got a perfect pocket trip behind a fast pace with 2 contenders failing to complete the course. Miesques approval ran really well considering he passed pretty much the whole field and outkicked the kickers. He would have had probably the toughest trip of all the winners.

Isn't that usually the norm in BC races? Or in any race with 14 horses for that matter. Only a far superior horse can overcome a bad trip in full fields of good horses. There are too many good horses in the BC to let someone overcome a bad trip.

[randallscott35]

Steve, a 7 debut is good. A "0" debut by Discreet last year is the freakish fast kind.

Too much development, too early for Street I'm afraid. We'll see.


As for the wraps comments before on Nafzger. He absolutely runs most of his horses in wraps all the time, as does Wilkes by the way. The difference here is that he didn't always do that with Street Sense. Could be something, might be nothing. But I've seen enough of the wraps on angle as a warning sign in my life to be skeptical. Bluegrass Cat anyone?

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by randallscott35

As for the wraps comments before on Nafzger. He absolutely runs most of his horses in wraps all the time, as does Wilkes by the way. The difference here is that he didn't always do that with Street Sense. Could be something, might be nothing.

R.I.,

Go back in the thread.. The Cannon Shell guy, who seems to know a thing or two about Churchill doin's, says that Street Sense had a cut on his leg that Nafzger wanted covered for logical reasons...

[lemoncrush]

I think it's an interesting theory, and since I don't follow sheet numbers much, I'm interested to see how he turns out.
I have to agree it's a little premature to bury a horse that won so impressively.
We all know how difficult it is to predict a derby favorite this early, and I would guess we'll be talking about several other new contenders by the first of the year.

[randallscott35]

Originally Posted by Kasept

R.I.,

Go back in the thread.. The Cannon Shell guy, who seems to know a thing or two about Churchill doin's, says that Street Sense had a cut on his leg that Nafzger wanted covered for logical reasons...

As I said Steve, "could be nothing." If it was a cut, I guess it was nothing. Its something I pointed out in my original post which is something handicappers don't pay enough attention to in general.

The issue remains the number that was run and when it was run. He better be special to overcome that. Whether he is off 6 months or a year. I've seen enough of this to know he's up against it regardless of who his trainer is.

Time will tell.

[Cajungator26]

Guys, if I could chime in for a second...

Polo wraps do not provide the kind of support necessary to prevent an actual soft tissue injury. They are primarily used as protection from exterior damage (as in bumps, bangs, etc from other horses.) In order for a polo wrap to provide the kind of necessary support everyone is talking about here, it would have to be put on extremely tight and that kind of pressure can cause bandage bows (which is a bigger risk.) Just my opinion...

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Actually, polo wraps protect a horse from splints, bucked shins, windpuffs, bruises...etc. Splints, windpuffs, and bucked shins cause temporary lameness, but can be seen as a blemish for the rest of a horse's life. Also, if wrapped right, polo wraps do provide support when they are hooked just behind the fetlock joint. They provide support of the flexor tendons. Also, no extremely good horseman will ever wrap the wraps tight enough as to bow a tendon. Every great hunter/jumper trainer and dressage trainer that I have ever seen uses them. I've wrapped hundreds of horses, and have never had one bow a tendon yet, and I'm not even worried about it because I know how to wrap...

Here is a list of all the soft tissue injuries that wraps may prevent...
http://www.umm.edu/orthopaedics/soft.htm

Also, it has come to my attention from a very knowledgable race tracker that wraps may actually slow down a horse a little bit, and it would make sense because the horse does not have quite as much flexibility in their fetlock joint. There is some slight tension and resistence at the joint from the wraps. Alot of the major trainers of the sport believe this (or so I've been told...but my source is reliable). Of course, I would never ever ever let that affect the way I bet a race, or me ever using wraps on my horses.

Also, a lot of racehorse trainers use wraps as a means of preventing burns on the bottom of a horse's fetlock joint when they are running in a race. This is especially true for horses who are a little coon footed (long in the pasterns), because these horses fetlock joints will touch the ground while they are running.

Okay, Im done now.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by kentuckyrosesinmay

Actually, polo wraps protect a horse from splints, bucked shins, windpuffs, bruises...etc. Splints, windpuffs, and bucked shins cause temporary lameness, but can be seen as a blemish for the rest of a horse's life. Also, if wrapped right, polo wraps do provide support when they are hooked just behind the fetlock joint. They provide support of the flexor tendons. Also, no extremely good horseman will ever wrap the wraps tight enough as to bow a tendon. Every great hunter/jumper trainer and dressage trainer that I have ever seen uses them. I've wrapped hundreds of horses, and have never had one bow a tendon yet, and I'm not even worried about it because I know how to wrap...

Here is a list of all the soft tissue injuries that wraps may prevent...
http://www.umm.edu/orthopaedics/soft.htm

Also, it has come to my attention from a very knowledgable race tracker that wraps may actually slow down a horse a little bit, and it would make sense because the horse does not have quite as much flexibility in their fetlock joint. There is some slight tension and resistence at the joint from the wraps. Alot of the major trainers of the sport believe this (or so I've been told...but my source is reliable). Of course, I would never ever ever let that affect the way I bet a race, or me ever using wraps on my horses.

Also, a lot of racehorse trainers use wraps as a means of preventing burns on the bottom of a horse's fetlock joint when they are running in a race. This is especially true for horses who are a little coon footed (long in the pasterns), because these horses fetlock joints will touch the ground while they are running.

Okay, Im done now.

I disagree, Jessica. I've been wrapping horses since I was 6 years old, so yeah, I know how to wrap as well and I haven't ever caused a bowed tendon either. It CAN happen, though and that is the primary reason that smart horsemen will not wrap their horses with POLO wraps while trailering (bandage bows.) As you know, there are different types of boots and leg protection gear to use while riding and while I personally use polo wraps during routine riding, I do so because of the protection they offer to the exterior of the horses leg (especially for horses who overreach, etc.) I use jumping boots, splint boots etc for actual support and my trainer will not "hook" polo wraps because there IS a risk in doing that, and when you've got eventers that are worth a quarter of a million buckaroos, you don't want to chance it.

Polo wraps got their name because they were originally popular among polo players. Their usefulness has long since expanded into most every other discipline. Polo wraps, usually made of cotton-blend fabric, offer wide-spectrum protection, depending on how they are used. People who use polo wraps like them because of their versatility, since different parts of the leg can be protected, depending on how they are applied. Using polo wraps, however, requires some experience, since a leg can be easily damaged by a wrap that has been applied improperly. They also require more maintenance than leg boots in order to maintain their usefulness and elasticity.

Originally Posted by kentuckyrosesinmay

Actually, polo wraps protect a horse from splints, bucked shins, windpuffs, bruises...etc. Splints, windpuffs, and bucked shins cause temporary lameness, but can be seen as a blemish for the rest of a horse's life. Also, if wrapped right, polo wraps do provide support when they are hooked just behind the fetlock joint. They provide support of the flexor tendons. Also, no extremely good horseman will ever wrap the wraps tight enough as to bow a tendon. Every great hunter/jumper trainer and dressage trainer that I have ever seen uses them. I've wrapped hundreds of horses, and have never had one bow a tendon yet, and I'm not even worried about it because I know how to wrap...

Here is a list of all the soft tissue injuries that wraps may prevent...
http://www.umm.edu/orthopaedics/soft.htm

Also, it has come to my attention from a very knowledgable race tracker that wraps may actually slow down a horse a little bit, and it would make sense because the horse does not have quite as much flexibility in their fetlock joint. There is some slight tension and resistence at the joint from the wraps. Alot of the major trainers of the sport believe this (or so I've been told...but my source is reliable). Of course, I would never ever ever let that affect the way I bet a race, or me ever using wraps on my horses.

Also, a lot of racehorse trainers use wraps as a means of preventing burns on the bottom of a horse's fetlock joint when they are running in a race. This is especially true for horses who are a little coon footed (long in the pasterns), because these horses fetlock joints will touch the ground while they are running.

Okay, Im done now.

As a former racetrack groom, I'm here to tell you there's a giant difference between "wraps" and "bandages" and "rundowns" and where they all go and what they're all for.

Bandages in the true sense are what goes on a horse in his stall. Standing, sweats, poultices, spiders...

Wraps are usually used during training and are "polo" types, discussed above, or "tracers" which resemble ace bandages and are used for both protection and added support. Of course some also use tight vetwrap bandages on horses when training when the horse needs it; I was lucky to never have had one of them. I had a mare, who won a stakes at Ellis Park in 1997, who had some ankle issues and we used tracers on all fours for her and that was more than sufficient.

Oh and racing bandages are called "rundowns" when on hind legs and are, basically, vetwrap around the ankles and a rundown patch over the top (or back of the ankle, in this case.) I think this is what you were referring to when you mentioned preventing burns, which is called running down. For front bandages, which is what the "f" in the Form is for, it's the same thing, only wrapped tightly for support rather than prevention of running down, nine times out of 10. I've seen a horse or two actually run down in front, too. But it's rare...

[Revolution]

Originally Posted by redransom

As a former racetrack groom, I'm here to tell you there's a giant difference between "wraps" and "bandages" and "rundowns" and where they all go and what they're all for.

Bandages in the true sense are what goes on a horse in his stall. Standing, sweats, poultices, spiders...

Wraps are usually used during training and are "polo" types, discussed above, or "tracers" which resemble ace bandages and are used for both protection and added support. Of course some also use tight vetwrap bandages on horses when training when the horse needs it; I was lucky to never have had one of them. I had a mare, who won a stakes at Ellis Park in 1997, who had some ankle issues and we used tracers on all fours for her and that was more than sufficient.

Oh and racing bandages are called "rundowns" when on hind legs and are, basically, vetwrap around the ankles and a rundown patch over the top (or back of the ankle, in this case.) I think this is what you were referring to when you mentioned preventing burns, which is called running down. For front bandages, which is what the "f" in the Form is for, it's the same thing, only wrapped tightly for support rather than prevention of running down, nine times out of 10. I've seen a horse or two actually run down in front, too. But it's rare...

Thanks. That is good stuff.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by redransom

As a former racetrack groom, I'm here to tell you there's a giant difference between "wraps" and "bandages" and "rundowns" and where they all go and what they're all for.

Bandages in the true sense are what goes on a horse in his stall. Standing, sweats, poultices, spiders...

Wraps are usually used during training and are "polo" types, discussed above, or "tracers" which resemble ace bandages and are used for both protection and added support. Of course some also use tight vetwrap bandages on horses when training when the horse needs it; I was lucky to never have had one of them. I had a mare, who won a stakes at Ellis Park in 1997, who had some ankle issues and we used tracers on all fours for her and that was more than sufficient.

Oh and racing bandages are called "rundowns" when on hind legs and are, basically, vetwrap around the ankles and a rundown patch over the top (or back of the ankle, in this case.) I think this is what you were referring to when you mentioned preventing burns, which is called running down. For front bandages, which is what the "f" in the Form is for, it's the same thing, only wrapped tightly for support rather than prevention of running down, nine times out of 10. I've seen a horse or two actually run down in front, too. But it's rare...

Thanks... very good info there. I had never heard of "tracers."

[alysheba4]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

God, can you imagine if he had run his race?????

Could have been a negative 12!

.....negative smegative........horse got looked in the eye, and punched in the neck. a horse like g.z would have beat that group by 10.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by alysheba4

.....negative smegative........horse got looked in the eye, and punched in the neck. a horse like g.z would have beat that group by 10.

Apparently identifying sarcasm is NOT one of your strong suits.

[Revolution]

Originally Posted by alysheba4

.....negative smegative........horse got looked in the eye, and punched in the neck. a horse like g.z would have beat that group by 10.

I am sure gz would have but considering he only raced 2.6x a year that doesn't say much for him.

Ghostzapper is just like Discreet Cat. Tons of talent and unable to stay healthy. That doesn't make for a great horse.

[alysheba4]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Apparently identifying sarcasm is NOT one of your strong suits.

.....right back at ya AL.

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Originally Posted by redransom

As a former racetrack groom, I'm here to tell you there's a giant difference between "wraps" and "bandages" and "rundowns" and where they all go and what they're all for.

Bandages in the true sense are what goes on a horse in his stall. Standing, sweats, poultices, spiders...

Wraps are usually used during training and are "polo" types, discussed above, or "tracers" which resemble ace bandages and are used for both protection and added support. Of course some also use tight vetwrap bandages on horses when training when the horse needs it; I was lucky to never have had one of them. I had a mare, who won a stakes at Ellis Park in 1997, who had some ankle issues and we used tracers on all fours for her and that was more than sufficient.

Oh and racing bandages are called "rundowns" when on hind legs and are, basically, vetwrap around the ankles and a rundown patch over the top (or back of the ankle, in this case.) I think this is what you were referring to when you mentioned preventing burns, which is called running down. For front bandages, which is what the "f" in the Form is for, it's the same thing, only wrapped tightly for support rather than prevention of running down, nine times out of 10. I've seen a horse or two actually run down in front, too. But it's rare...

Thanks for the correct terminology red ransom. That's good stuff.

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

I disagree, Jessica. I've been wrapping horses since I was 6 years old, so yeah, I know how to wrap as well and I haven't ever caused a bowed tendon either. It CAN happen, though and that is the primary reason that smart horsemen will not wrap their horses with POLO wraps while trailering (bandage bows.) As you know, there are different types of boots and leg protection gear to use while riding and while I personally use polo wraps during routine riding, I do so because of the protection they offer to the exterior of the horses leg (especially for horses who overreach, etc.) I use jumping boots, splint boots etc for actual support and my trainer will not "hook" polo wraps because there IS a risk in doing that, and when you've got eventers that are worth a quarter of a million buckaroos, you don't want to chance it.

Polo wraps got their name because they were originally popular among polo players. Their usefulness has long since expanded into most every other discipline. Polo wraps, usually made of cotton-blend fabric, offer wide-spectrum protection, depending on how they are used. People who use polo wraps like them because of their versatility, since different parts of the leg can be protected, depending on how they are applied. Using polo wraps, however, requires some experience, since a leg can be easily damaged by a wrap that has been applied improperly. They also require more maintenance than leg boots in order to maintain their usefulness and elasticity.

Well, I was talking about using wraps on racehorses, not on horses who are shipping.

And what is the risk for hooking polo wraps? Please tell me. I would love to know because I am baffled from that statement. Also, as redransom said, racehorse trainers do have their horses fetlock joints hooked. Some of those animals are worth millions and millions. Take Afleet Alex for example. Tim Ritchey used to be a three day eventer, and he had Alex's rundowns hooked behind the fetlock joint.

In your second paragraph, you forgot to talk about how polo wraps add SUPPORT. I could find numerous articles by famous horsemen agreeing with me on this. I have learned everything I know through experience.

I use bell boots for horses overreaching. If you are riding animals who overreach so badly that they hit their cannon bones or ankle joint, then they aren't very high dollar or quality animals because they can't move.