Rags!!!!!!!!!!!!

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by philcski

Great point, for me it was about midstretch when I realized she was going to do this thing and the crowd started going crazy!!

It was certainly a very exciting race.

However, it's the fan in me that makes me want to hang around here now and try to convince people from getting carried away at considering her an all-time great filly...off the basis of winning a race that her past form and pedigree suggested she was more than capable of winning.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

A lot of the very good fillies I've seen through the years have never had the chance to run against males--in the type of race that was totally to their benefit.

If anyone remembers back to 1992, a 3-year-old filly named Jolypha came over from Europe...she ran 3rd in the Breeders Cup Classic in her dirt debut, losing to only A. P. Indy (R2R's sire) and Pleasant Tap (Tiago's sire)

I just hope that people don't lose sight of the fact that Rags to Riches was much better suited for a race like the Belmont....than her other main rivals in there. Pletcher would have been a fool to not run her....and to his credit, he's no fool.

yeah, i remember jolypha. need more like her!

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

It was certainly a very exciting race.

However, it's the fan in me that makes me want to hang around here now and try to convince people from getting carried away at considering her an all-time great filly...off the basis of winning a race that her past form and pedigree suggested she was more than capable of winning.

i think right now everyone is enjoying having seen a great race.
not so sure that anyone really knows where she fits in historically at this point! too much racing left to do.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Perhaps you're right.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

How in the world can you compare a Hungarian filly who raced in the 1800's to modern horses? It is not an opinion thing but a relevance thing.

Obviously we disagree...!

[philcski]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

It was certainly a very exciting race.

However, it's the fan in me that makes me want to hang around here now and try to convince people from getting carried away at considering her an all-time great filly...off the basis of winning a race that her past form and pedigree suggested she was more than capable of winning.

I don't know if she's an all time great filly, but it's a damned impressive feat for a filly to win the Belmont. That much I know...

And I was NOT a believer before the Oaks. Having witnessed both performances in person, she's the real deal.

[Danzig]

Pletcher sad the filly may race against the boys this summer, in either the Haskell Invitational at Monmouth Park of the Travers at Saratoga. He also mentioned two top filly races as possibilities, the Coaching Club American Oaks and the Alabama.

"It's way too premature to make a decision right this second," he said. "We have to let this settle. And first and foremost, we have to see how the filly comes out."

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Obviously we disagree...!

Ever see her run? Ever see a chart of one of her races? Ever talk to someone that saw her in person? It is like comparing real things to a ghost.

[philcski]

I've seen it all after watching the replay...

Pletcher showed some emotion and excitement!

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Ever see her run? Ever see a chart of one of her races? Ever talk to someone that saw her in person? It is like comparing real things to a ghost.

Look, I've studied racing history as a hobby for 30 years, I know more about Kincsem than most folks know about Secretariat...you are entitled to your opinion but I see no reason to belittle mine. the horse was 54-54 racing males all over Europe and carried up to 168 pounds, say what you will...I believe she was the best!

Mr. Damper man now appears.

Folks, that was a hell of an exciting race but it was run like a Euro turf race. 6f in 1:15 1/5 ... The stretch was incredible and I thought Curlin did a great job of fighting back and our filly put it right back in his face. This race was a great competition. But it was not a fantastic physical feat. Its very clear both of these horses can run all day long and when the first part of the race is walked through...

It was a great race for horseracing sake though. And if these two happen too meet again against Invasor in the BCC after they have improved even more, joining Street Sense, then we will have seen heaven. I would also like to see how Papi Chullo progresses after today and a new crew. That was a great run today.

[timmgirvan]

Originally Posted by philcski

Great point, for me it was about midstretch when I realized she was going to do this thing and the crowd started going crazy!!

What a beautiful thing to see...

[Merlinsky]

Check it out folks, she got the NY Times all warm and fuzzy.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/10/sp...=1&oref=slogin

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

I hope people don't get too carried away and talk about her like she's an all-time great filly...and certainly this was no all-time great training job.

Rags to Riches simply belonged in this race....last out, she ran an identical speed figure to what older male Wanderin Boy earned---while over the same track, on the same day, with the more difficult trip of the two. Which assured she'd be in this race--regardless of whoelse did or didn't show.

From a pedigree standpoint, she projected for major improvement on the three furlong stretchout in distance....as she's by the #1 dirt racing distance sire in the game---and out of tremendously stamina laden female family.

She owned a gigantic edge in pedigree over Curlin for the distance---and, getting five pounds in weight over 12 furlongs didn't hurt either.

Don't get me wrong---she certainly enhanced her standing with her performance today...but not as much as people seem to be acting. I've liked her a lot all along---but I just hope people don't get carried away.

i'll mostly agree with you on this. as you know, i thought she'd be good enough to win the derby when you had me watch her maiden win, so i've been a huge fan of this filly since then, but now i dont think all the talk of her being so great is quite warranted yet.

while you cite figures and such validating her belonging in the belmont, i've felt all along that she was the best 3yo in this country, male or female. frankly, i felt the way the race setup, she really should have won by more than she did.

as much as i like her, i wouldnt put her near the level of an inside information or lakeway (prior to all her problems) yet!

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

She's the first filly in history to win the Belmont at 12 furlongs and she beat a freak in Curlin...I don't think that one can help but think that she may join the best....she needs to beat the boys again and beat older horses, if she does that...she breaks into the short list. I see her as sorta like Lady's Secret (different style to a degree but she reminds me of her grit)...the top two fillies ever to race imo are Kincsem and Ruffian, not near those yet but certainly could be as good as any others!

i dont buy this curlin being a freak thing either. he's really good, but i think the preakness was somewhat fraudulent, and curlin's success is bolstered by the lack of depth in this crop. he's a really nice horse, and he's going to win more races, but there is no way his preakness was one of the best ever run, let alone the best.

[Merlinsky]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Look, I've studied racing history as a hobby for 30 years, I know more about Kincsem than most folks know about Secretariat...you are entitled to your opinion but I see no reason to belittle mine. the horse was 54-54 racing males all over Europe and carried up to 168 pounds, say what you will...I believe she was the best!

Yeah but who'd she beat?... (ducks tomatoes) Kidding! Just teasing Somer. You know I know your fandom of Kincsem from way back. Anybody done a writeup on her? Her achievements merit more attention.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Merlinsky

Yeah but who'd she beat?... (ducks tomatoes) Kidding! Just teasing Somer. You know I know your fandom of Kincsem from way back. Anybody done a writeup on her? Her achievements merit more attention.

Chris (SCC) and I did several write-ups on her. There are books written about her and a race track named after her!
http://www.thoroughbredchampions.com...es/kincsem.htm

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Look, I've studied racing history as a hobby for 30 years, I know more about Kincsem than most folks know about Secretariat...you are entitled to your opinion but I see no reason to belittle mine. the horse was 54-54 racing males all over Europe and carried up to 168 pounds, say what you will...I believe she was the best!

I have no doubt that all that is true but it is like apples and oranges. Maybe her trainer was the Hungarian juice trainer of the day?

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I have no doubt that all that is true but it is like apples and oranges. Maybe her trainer was the Hungarian juice trainer of the day?

Yeah, raced carrying 168 pounds over 12 furlongs and won easily...Scott Lake doesn't have juice that good even today!

[miraja2]

What she did today was quite impressive, and she deserves to be praised for it. It was an exciting race and she performed very well.
Although I doubted this filly a bit before the Oaks, I have liked her ever sense her performance that day so I am BEGGING people on here to avoid saying things like "she beat a freak in Curlin" and that she is better than any filly other than Kincsem and Ruffian. Don't make me start rooting against this filly because of the nonsensical over-hype (see Bernardini last year).
She is a very good filly, and MAYBE someday she will rank among the all-time greats. But if Curlin is a freak, our definition of a "freak" has changed dramatically. And how in the world could she rank higher than someone like (to name just one example) Personal Ensign? Personal Ensign was 13 for 13 lifetime, including 8 G1s over three years, AND beat the boys in the Whitney.
Any ranking of all-time great fillies that had Rags over Personal Ensign right now would be.....well.....just plain wrong.