Rainbow 6

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

How would you possibly know this?

Are you going to pretend that we should just discount the charts on the off chance that caller isnt doing a good job?

Who said we should discount charts?

I would bet I follow the charts at all tracks a LOT closer than you do. Most do a good job given the time allowed. But if there wasn't a rush to get charts out, they could be much better.

But, this has nothing to do with charts guys commenting on DQ / non DQ situations. Charts are almost always tailored in these situations to follow the opinion of the stewards. This wasn't always the case, but in the last few years, it has become the norm.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Who said we should discount charts?

I would bet I follow the charts at all tracks a LOT closer than you do. Most do a good job given the time allowed. But if there wasn't a rush to get charts out, they could be much better.

But, this has nothing to do with charts guys commenting on DQ / non DQ situations. Charts are almost always tailored in these situations to follow the opinion of the stewards. This wasn't always the case, but in the last few years, it has become the norm.

So you are essentially saying that there is a conspiracy between chart callers and stewards at various tracks throughout the country to get on the same page concerning DQ's?

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

So you are essentially saying that there is a conspiracy between chart callers and stewards at various tracks throughout the country to get on the same page concerning DQ's?

I'm saying in my opinion of watching lots of replays and reading lots of charts, that when a foul is involved, the chart caller will almost always reflect the opinion of the stewards. That is my experience. Why, I have no idea. I'm not suggesting anything, I'm just stating what I see. I project figures for a lot of horses, so when there is trouble I go to watch and see how much or how little of an impact I think it had.

A decade ago, it was pretty common that a chart caller would make it clear if he disagreed with a steward's decision. Today, not nearly as much. Do you disagree? I can't remember a single one recently.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

I'm saying in my opinion of watching lots of replays and reading lots of charts, that when a foul is involved, the chart caller will almost always reflect the opinion of the stewards. That is my experience. Why, I have no idea. I'm not suggesting anything, I'm just stating what I see. I project figures for a lot of horses, so when there is trouble I go to watch and see how much or how little of an impact I think it had.

A decade ago, it was pretty common that a chart caller would make it clear if he disagreed with a steward's decision. Today, not nearly as much. Do you disagree? I can't remember a single one recently.

Wouldnt you say the vast majority of DQ's are pretty clear cut as to what happened? Especially since the camera's are so much better than they used to be?

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Wouldnt you say the vast majority of DQ's are pretty clear cut as to what happened? Especially since the camera's are so much better than they used to be?

No, I don't think there is any consistency to stewards decisions, even on the same circuit. I won't pretend to know all the rules, but based on the calls I've seen made (and not made), the same infraction is often adjudicated differently from day to day.

Honestly, I don't see the views being any better than they were 20 years ago. Some tracks don't even have "straight" head on views, particularly on turf. They pictures aren't that clear, not like the cameras are HD. And, there are still plenty of blind spots.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

No, I don't think there is any consistency to stewards decisions, even on the same circuit. I won't pretend to know all the rules, but based on the calls I've seen made (and not made), the same infraction is often adjudicated differently from day to day.

Honestly, I don't see the views being any better than they were 20 years ago. Some tracks don't even have "straight" head on views, particularly on turf. They pictures aren't that clear, not like the cameras are HD. And, there are still plenty of blind spots.

Check out the feed from Atlantic City for a look back in time.
You can barely make out individual horses on the head on

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Check out the feed from Atlantic City for a look back in time.
You can barely make out individual horses on the head on

I said 20 years ago. AC hasn't run a real meet in longer than that I'm sure.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Who said we should discount charts?

Well you did when you said that it was ridiculous to state the chartcallers opinion

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Well you did when you said that it was ridiculous to state the chartcallers opinion

Of that, yes, but not the charts as a whole. Sorry if it came across that way.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Of that, yes, but not the charts as a whole. Sorry if it came across that way.

So Chuck Streva's chart for that particular race is ridiculous to use as an example of an independent opinion of the race because you feel there is collusion between Stewards and chart callers regarding DQ's?

In other words if the horse hadn't come down Chuck would have worded the chart in a different manner?

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

So Chuck Streva's chart for that particular race is ridiculous to use as an example of an independent opinion of the race because you feel there is collusion between Stewards and chart callers regarding DQ's?

In other words if the horse hadn't come down Chuck would have worded the chart in a different manner?

Again, you are just making **** up. I never said there was collusion. I'm just giving what I see. Why, AGAIN, I don't know. I don't think there is any plotting going on behind the scenes as you imply.

Had the horse not come down, I don't think we'd have gotten the same narrative based on my experience. Of course I don't know that as fact in this particular instance, nor do you.

You didn't answer my last question, maybe you'll answer this one. Do you think the opinion of the stewards can influence the chart maker? Isn't that possible without it being some grand conspiracy?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Again, you are just making **** up. I never said there was collusion. I'm just giving what I see. Why, AGAIN, I don't know. I don't think there is any plotting going on behind the scenes as you imply.

Had the horse not come down, I don't think we'd have gotten the same narrative based on my experience. Of course I don't know that as fact in this particular instance, nor do you.

You didn't answer my last question, maybe you'll answer this one. Do you think the opinion of the stewards can influence the chart maker? Isn't that possible without it being some grand conspiracy?

I'm just trying to understand why the official chart of the race from an experienced chart caller would be "ridiculous" to use as a point of view?

You used the word ridiculous. The rest is just conjecture.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I'm just trying to understand why the official chart of the race from an experienced chart caller would be "ridiculous" to use as a point of view?

You used the word ridiculous. The rest is just conjecture.

Maybe ridiculous was harsh. But if you use the chart call as some form of evidence, you will nearly always side with the stewards. It isn't conjecture if it is true. Funny you won't answer simple questions. I'm sure you've been digging for some charts that make a DQ look questionable. (Hint: you'll be looking for a while)