Random observations on 9/11

[my miss storm cat]

Originally Posted by pointman

Both the Egyptian and Libyan governments have gone to the Muslim Brotherhood. Al-Qaeda has opened camps in Libya since that government cannot fully control its territory. I don't think it is clear that the extremists will not have the power at the end of the day.

Regardless, Obama's failure to support those rising up with the goal of democracy against dictators will likely have a long lasting negative effect. The opportunity was there to support those who wanted to turn their nations into democratic states, but they did not get the expected support from the country that is supposed to be the model for the spread of democracy. With our support and encouragement, it is possible that the Iranians would have joined the Abab Spring to overthrow their theocracy, likely our biggest threat today.

However, Obama is such a weak leader that he was afraid to support these people without the support of the Russians and Chinese who likely are withholding that support because they don't want the spread of democracy and they can make this country look foolish knowing Obama is a weak leader. The result is the message that if people rise against their terrorist and dictatorial governments they can expect no support from the U.S. and its allies. A missed opportunity that will have consequences.

People need to realize that this administration is not only a failure with domestic policies, but foreign as well.

This is a great post.

You nailed it.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by my miss storm cat

This is a great post.

You nailed it.

no, he didn't. we helped topple qaddafi, to what end? they had elections, but the 'wrong party' won?
we tried to keep mubarek in power, because it was better for us. but once our govt realized he was going whether we liked it or not, we switched sides. that got us nowhere. it just showed that portion of our foreign policy sucked.
we went into iraq, and that's a mess. so, we're supposed to go into iran? so there's another mess to go with iraq and afganistan? what about bahrain? they want democracy, and we ignore it, because the rulers of bahrain don't want that. so, we placate the rulers because we have a base there. thus, we are ignoring people who supposedly want democracy.
when we support overthrows, and they have elections, some of us don't like the results, because it's the 'wrong kind' of democracy-many are unhappy that the muslim brotherhood won the election. doesn't square with us wanting elections, does it?
lol it's a huge clusterf*ck.

the u.s. government = snafu. and we all know what that means.


and yeah, russia and china are witholding support because of money and power. you know, like we do.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by Danzig

no, he didn't. we helped topple qaddafi, to what end? they had elections, but the 'wrong party' won?
we tried to keep mubarek in power, because it was better for us. but once our govt realized he was going whether we liked it or not, we switched sides. that got us nowhere. it just showed that portion of our foreign policy sucked.
we went into iraq, and that's a mess. so, we're supposed to go into iran? so there's another mess to go with iraq and afganistan? what about bahrain? they want democracy, and we ignore it, because the rulers of bahrain don't want that. so, we placate the rulers because we have a base there. thus, we are ignoring people who supposedly want democracy.
when we support overthrows, and they have elections, some of us don't like the results, because it's the 'wrong kind' of democracy-many are unhappy that the muslim brotherhood won the election. doesn't square with us wanting elections, does it?
lol it's a huge clusterf*ck.

the u.s. government = snafu. and we all know what that means.


and yeah, russia and china are witholding support because of money and power. you know, like we do.

you nailed it.

i really dont understand what pointman and miss cat want us to do regarding democracy in other country's that we should have no part of.

Put in our own leaders? Like we did with Saddam, Mubarek and quddafi to begin with? How is that democracy.

Please tell us how to handle foreign policy!

My suggestion is to stay out of it.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

you nailed it.

i really dont understand what pointman and miss cat want us to do regarding democracy in other country's that we should have no part of.

Put in our own leaders? Like we did with Saddam, Mubarek and quddafi to begin with? How is that democracy.

Please tell us how to handle foreign policy!

My suggestion is to stay out of it.

we've expanded our sphere of influence to the entire world. (today the world, tomorrow the universe?! ) it's been a mistaken foreign policy for years. and where has it gotten us? broke.

you can't 'support democracy' and then expect it all to end like it did here. how often have we actually seen that happen?
you can't say, we want free elections, and then say 'but make sure you elect the party we like'. lol how would that be an improvement for said country?

so, to hell with trying to figure out what would be best for everyone. it's impossible. so, can we start worrying more about what's best for this country???

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by Danzig

we've expanded our sphere of influence to the entire world. (today the world, tomorrow the universe?! ) it's been a mistaken foreign policy for years. and where has it gotten us? broke.

you can't 'support democracy' and then expect it all to end like it did here. how often have we actually seen that happen?
you can't say, we want free elections, and then say 'but make sure you elect the party we like'. lol how would that be an improvement for said country?

so, to hell with trying to figure out what would be best for everyone. it's impossible. so, can we start worrying more about what's best for this country???

we have thousands upon thousands of years of world history to study and learn from...

But what do we do?


Repeat it.

Human nature cannot change, I guess.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

we have thousands upon thousands of years of world history to study and learn from...

But what do we do?


Repeat it.

Human nature cannot change, I guess.

i love, love, love history. it's fascinating. and then when you hear comments now...that people think are so original, i just laugh. because it's been said before, a million times over, in a million different eras.
those who ignore history truly are doomed to repeat it.

I dont think Germany in the 1930's compares at all to the middle eastern problem.

it actually does. it also compares to ww1. and also to previous wars in europe. you see, france had fought germany back in the later 1800's, and lost a lot of land. alsace/lorraine was part of it. germany was made out to be the bad guy in ww1, but it's far, far more involved than that. it was actually the dying austro/hungarian empire in her death throes that caused ww1. and what it all boiled down to was empire building/keeping and power. just like ww2.
france almost, almost caused germany to begin fighting again in ww1, because the price they demanded was so high-including the return of alsace/lorraine. germany was ultimately crippled by the treaty, which caused all the economic upheaval, anger, etc...which ultimately lead to hitler, the nazi party and his rise to power. wilson tried to get lighter sanctions, and it didn't happen. and look where that got europe.
a great part of the middle east was involved in both world wars, because much of africa and the middle east was controlled by european powers. what we're witnessing now is history in the making, with countries still trying to form identities. and i'm not sure whether we're helping or hindering. the fact that those countries are still essentially almost third world, with untapped resources is why we, and europe, are so involved. it's not for humanitarian reasons.