Black Caviar at Royal Ascot Saturday AM

[Riot]

But even in a herd, you would pick Black Caviar out in a cold minute. As an individual she is imposing: tall, massively strong in her hindquarters, weighing in at 585kg [1287 lbs ] which is more than the steeplechaser Denman, himself nicknamed The Tank because of his notable size and strength. A

s an athlete the innate power of her movement is extraordinarily compelling, at whatever speed. At a walk and a trot she has the balanced self-carriage of a trained dressage horse; at the gallop she has been measured at nine strides to the furlong. The second-best sprinter in Australia, Hay List, an even bigger specimen, takes 11.

The dark bay six-year-old's attributes as a runner, which include being the first horse in Australia to clock sub-10 seconds for 200 metres and 11 victories at the highest level, have captured the public imagination outside racing in a way that the sport's promoters in this country can only fantasise about.

Black Caviar was clocked at 9.98 seconds for 200 meters mid-race. 200 meters is not exactly a furlong, but that would still put furlong equivalent at less than 10.1 seconds, no? Have to get the calculator out. Do you know any horses that have run under 10.5 mid-race for a furlong? Dr. Fager? Ghostzapper?

[Riot]

Black Caviar's race record: 22 22-0-0-0

1000 meters = 4.97 furlongs
1200 meters = 5.965 furlongs
1400 meters = 6.959 furlongs

2-year-old:
NA 1000 m 0:56.63 won x 5.0 lengths
LR 1200 m 1:09/76 x 6.0

3-year-old:
LR 1200 m 1:11:15 x 3.0
G2 1200 m 1:09.96 x 0.8
G2 1200 m 1:10:18 x 2.3

4-year-old:
G2 1000 m 0:56:68 x 1.3
G2 1200 m 1:11:01 x 5.5
G1 1200 m 1:07:96 x 4.0
G1 1000 m 0:57.20 x 3.3
G1 1200 m 1:07:36 x 3.0
G1 1200 m 1:10:00 x 1.8
G1 1200 m 1:08:71 x 2.8
G1 1200 m 1:08:85 x 2.0

Five-year-old year:
G2 1000 m 0:56:73 x 4.3
G2 1200 m 1:10:13 x 6.0
G1 1200 m 1:08:03 x 2.8
G2 1200 m 1:09:44 x 4.3
G1 1400 m 1:25:14 x 3.3
G1 1000 m 0:55:53 x 1.8
G1 1200 m 1:10:65 x 4.5
G1 1200 m 1:10:32 x 1.3
G1 1200 m 1:14.10 x 0.1

[Calzone Lord]

The record time for 5 furlongs on turf here is Starfish Bay's 53.75 seconds. That's an avg furlong of 10.75 for the entire race.

She did it as a 4-year-old for Pletcher at Gulfstream in 2010.


http://www.equibase.com/premium/eqbP...try=USA&race=9

Raw times are always pretty useless without a variant. In the above example, the horses had a 150 foot running start till the timer was tripped.

I have no doubt Black Caviar has been the worlds best 5 furlong turf sprinter and is an all-time great at that specialist distance and surface.

A lot of Aussie and NZ breds have done very well in Europe. They've won 3 of the last 6 runnings of the Group1 King's Stand at 5f in England.

Black Caviar's only had one lifetime try beyond 6f and it was her least impressive race at home. She won a 7f Group 1 race easily -- but didn't run to the form of her typical wins. A Group 2 race also at 7fs was faster that day.

People go nuts for an undefeated record -- and couple that with a filly beating colts. She's obviously a great turf sprinter, but she's a turf sprinter. Never thought I'd see a turf sprinter get the love and hysteria that she gets.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

Never thought I'd see a turf sprinter get the love and hysteria that she gets.

I wasn't Zenyatta's biggest fan, and in many ways she was the most overrated horse I ever saw, but she was also a far superior horse to Black Caviar. Difficult to compare the two, as they are so different, but in the hierarchy of " talent " it's kind of hard to put turf sprinters in the upper echelon.

I don't mean to knock Black Caviar, as she's obviously a very cool horse, but perspective got lost when Al Gore invented the internet.

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

i think its cool she made the trip.and won wile things were stacked against her ie the going and her injury. very sporting of the connections..imo

I'm not willing to put synthetic horses on equal footing with turf horses. Whether it's 5 furlong specialists or routers.

I'd rather be wrong and say Black Caviar is a much better horse than Zenyatta.

And quite frankly if Zenyatta shipped to Ascot she would get drowned in a route race.

But again I'm lower on the know it all food chain so I digress.

Edit: removed a bad word that offends superior folk.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Coach Pants

I'm not willing to put synthetic horses on equal footing with turf horses. Whether it's 5 furlong specialists or routers.

I'd rather be wrong and say Black Caviar is a much better horse than Zenyatta.

And quite frankly if Zenyatta shipped to Ascot she would get drowned in a route race.

But again I'm lower on the know it all food chain so I digress.

Edit: removed a bad word that offends superior folk.

To be somewhat fair, Zenyatta lost on dirt by a head in the best dirt race in the world at the age of 6, and she easily won a very prestigious G1 race as a 4yo in her 4th career race. I hate how she was handled, but she was more than a synthetic horse.

[Merlinsky]

Originally Posted by Coach Pants

Edit: removed a bad word that offends superior folk.

Lasix?

[brockguy]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I wasn't Zenyatta's biggest fan, and in many ways she was the most overrated horse I ever saw, but she was also a far superior horse to Black Caviar. Difficult to compare the two, as they are so different, but in the hierarchy of " talent " it's kind of hard to put turf sprinters in the upper echelon.

I don't mean to knock Black Caviar, as she's obviously a very cool horse, but perspective got lost when Al Gore invented the internet.

I can't have any of this Andy and had to respond - if you want to say more accomplished etc yeah than the races that Zenyatta has won has trumped Black Caviar in terms of prestige and accomplishment but I doubt you could find a rating system that had Zenyatta as a better horse than Black Caviar - Timeform and Racing Post Ratings have BC as a fair few pounds ahead of Zenyatta. For example Zenyatta never ran a race according to the Racing Post Ratings over 130 - in comparison Black Caviar has 9 such races! her recorded times, speeds etc are extraordinary in a fairly competitive open sprint market in Australia beating very good sprints comfortably.

In my eyes there is no question who the better horse is but hey that's just my take on it - I'm just interested in how you can rate Zenyatta as a far superior horse?

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by brockguy

I can't have any of this Andy and had to respond - if you want to say more accomplished etc yeah than the races that Zenyatta has won has trumped Black Caviar in terms of prestige and accomplishment but I doubt you could find a rating system that had Zenyatta as a better horse than Black Caviar - Timeform and Racing Post Ratings have BC as a fair few pounds ahead of Zenyatta. For example Zenyatta never ran a race according to the Racing Post Ratings over 130 - in comparison Black Caviar has 9 such races! her recorded times, speeds etc are extraordinary in a fairly competitive open sprint market in Australia beating very good sprints comfortably.

In my eyes there is no question who the better horse is but hey that's just my take on it - I'm just interested in how you can rate Zenyatta as a far superior horse?

Disagreements make the world go round. I'm just glad you didn't have a temper tantrum and call me a slew of names.

I don't rank turf sprinters very highly. After seeing what a horse like Cannonball did at Royal Ascot a few years ago, it's hard for me to rate even the best one of all time as one of the greats in the game, and given what we saw Saturday, I can't elevate Black Caviar substantially in my esteem. Perhaps this is ignorance on my part, and surely I am not familiar with Australian racing, but given the evidence I have witnessed in the sport, I am not ready to change that opinion. Doesn't make me right....but it's still my opinion.

As far as Timeform ratings, especially for American horses, given I don't have any idea how they are formed, and what factors are used, I am not inclined to pay them great heed in this case. I prefer to stick with what has worked for me. I'm not knocking them, I just don't understand them, therefore I can't use them to form my opinions.

I'm not trying to knock Black Caviar, and God knows I'm no big Zenyatta fan, but I still think her overall talent exceded that of Black Caviar. Like I said, it doesn't make me right, but someone is going to have to do a lot more to convince me otherwise.

In thinking about this, I ask myself how I would compare Zenyatta to Groovy, perhaps the best dirt sprinter I ever saw, and I'm not sure how I would answer. With all due respect, at their very best, I am not qualified to rate Black Caviar as highly as Groovy. Maybe she is better, but I can't evaluate any evidence that would say so. So maybe I shouldn't even have made the original analogy, though I still believe I am right, but I don't have a problem if someone feels otherwise. I feel much more strongly that Zenyatta wasn't one of the five best fillies or mares I ever saw race. That I could easily back up.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I don't rank turf sprinters very highly. After seeing what a horse like Cannonball did at Royal Ascot a few years ago, it's hard for me to rate even the best one of all time as one of the greats in the game, and given what we saw Saturday, I can't elevate Black Caviar substantially in my esteem.

Are you rating your esteem of Black Caviar on one race?

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Disagreements make the world go round. I'm just glad you didn't have a temper tantrum and call me a slew of names.

I don't rank turf sprinters very highly. After seeing what a horse like Cannonball did at Royal Ascot a few years ago, it's hard for me to rate even the best one of all time as one of the greats in the game, and given what we saw Saturday, I can't elevate Black Caviar substantially in my esteem. Perhaps this is ignorance on my part, and surely I am not familiar with Australian racing, but given the evidence I have witnessed in the sport, I am not ready to change that opinion. Doesn't make me right....but it's still my opinion.

As far as Timeform ratings, especially for American horses, given I don't have any idea how they are formed, and what factors are used, I am not inclined to pay them great heed in this case. I prefer to stick with what has worked for me. I'm not knocking them, I just don't understand them, therefore I can't use them to form my opinions.

I'm not trying to knock Black Caviar, and God knows I'm no big Zenyatta fan, but I still think her overall talent exceded that of Black Caviar. Like I said, it doesn't make me right, but someone is going to have to do a lot more to convince me otherwise.

In thinking about this, I ask myself how I would compare Zenyatta to Groovy, perhaps the best dirt sprinter I ever saw, and I'm not sure how I would answer. With all due respect, at their very best, I am not qualified to rate Black Caviar as highly as Groovy. Maybe she is better, but I can't evaluate any evidence that would say so. So maybe I shouldn't even have made the original analogy, though I still believe I am right, but I don't have a problem if someone feels otherwise. I feel much more strongly that Zenyatta wasn't one of the five best fillies or mares I ever saw race. That I could easily back up.

Groovy the best dirt sprinter you ever saw? I really didn't think there was anyone left who thought that.