Black Caviar at Royal Ascot Saturday AM

[Riot]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Disagree with this. The slow race wasn't only by her but also the horses she beat. Her injury may add to her performance and perhaps it's logical to think she could have gone a bit faster without the injury. But the second and third finishers didn't come out with injuries so that doesn't change the fact that the grade one race went slower than the next one.

Yes. And if she had been 100%, and able to run to her (130 rating) - correction, Timeform rates her at 136, rather than the 115 that race got, she may have smoked the other race in time, and beaten that field by 10 lengths. We don't know. Have you ever watched the mares previous races? She holds the all-time, all-Australia record for the fastest 200 meters mid-race ever: 9 plus seconds. What American race horses have ever run 9-10 second furlongs mid-race in a 6 or 7 furlong race? I'm sure there are a few, but it's rare - a job for Lord to search his records and find out for us.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Riot

Yes. And if she had been 100%, and able to run to her (130 rating) - correction, Timeform rates her at 136, rather than the 115 that race got, she may have smoked the other race in time, and beaten that field by 10 lengths. We don't know. Have you ever watched the mares previous races? She holds the all-time, all-Australia record for the fastest 200 meters mid-race ever: 9 plus seconds. What American race horses have ever run 9-10 second furlongs mid-race in a 6 or 7 furlong race? I'm sure there are a few, but it's rare - a job for Lord to search his records and find out for us.

I did concede that it's logical to think that she could have run faster and won by more but I also don't think it should be considered as automatic. The other horses in the race were supposedly of grade one quality and their finishes weren't compromised by injury and they were below what was done in the next race. So I think we either believe that her race, even without injury, would have been right about on the level with what handicap horses did the next race or we believe that without the injury, she would have destroyed the field by 10+ and gotten her usual rating. I she usually running off and winning top races by 10+?

[Riot]

Yes. The mare usually wins by 3 to 6-7 lengths eased up. She's done it repeatedly in excellent times against good Grade 1 company (Hay List, Buffering), setting records, against older and colts, different tracks, etc.

If you are trying to make the argument this race at Ascot was average for Grade 1, yes. It was rated a 115. I don't see anybody arguing this race was outstanding.

If you are trying to use one of the worse races of Black Caviar's career, a race in which she was injured during the running, yet still won, as an indicator of the quality of the mare, that's wrong.

The mare was the Top Rated grass sprinter in the world before Ascot, and she still is, today. Her races are all on YouTube for anyone to see, and the times, distances and quality of competition is well-documented.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I did concede that it's logical to think that she could have run faster and won by more but I also don't think it should be considered as automatic. The other horses in the race were supposedly of grade one quality and their finishes weren't compromised by injury and they were below what was done in the next race. So I think we either believe that her race, even without injury, would have been right about on the level with what handicap horses did the next race or we believe that without the injury, she would have destroyed the field by 10+ and gotten her usual rating. I she usually running off and winning top races by 10+?

KG!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBh1iOpQQ_s

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by Riot

What American race horses have ever run 9-10 second furlongs mid-race in a 6 or 7 furlong race? I'm sure there are a few, but it's rare - a job for Lord to search his records and find out for us.

No horse can run a furlong in under 10 seconds mid-race unless they're going down a hill. It's impossible on a flat track.

The 6.5 furlong races on Santa Anita's turf course is run downhill. The track record is 1:11 flat.

[Riot]

But even in a herd, you would pick Black Caviar out in a cold minute. As an individual she is imposing: tall, massively strong in her hindquarters, weighing in at 585kg [1287 lbs ] which is more than the steeplechaser Denman, himself nicknamed The Tank because of his notable size and strength. A

s an athlete the innate power of her movement is extraordinarily compelling, at whatever speed. At a walk and a trot she has the balanced self-carriage of a trained dressage horse; at the gallop she has been measured at nine strides to the furlong. The second-best sprinter in Australia, Hay List, an even bigger specimen, takes 11.

The dark bay six-year-old's attributes as a runner, which include being the first horse in Australia to clock sub-10 seconds for 200 metres and 11 victories at the highest level, have captured the public imagination outside racing in a way that the sport's promoters in this country can only fantasise about.

Black Caviar was clocked at 9.98 seconds for 200 meters mid-race. 200 meters is not exactly a furlong, but that would still put furlong equivalent at less than 10.1 seconds, no? Have to get the calculator out. Do you know any horses that have run under 10.5 mid-race for a furlong? Dr. Fager? Ghostzapper?

[Riot]

Black Caviar's race record: 22 22-0-0-0

1000 meters = 4.97 furlongs
1200 meters = 5.965 furlongs
1400 meters = 6.959 furlongs

2-year-old:
NA 1000 m 0:56.63 won x 5.0 lengths
LR 1200 m 1:09/76 x 6.0

3-year-old:
LR 1200 m 1:11:15 x 3.0
G2 1200 m 1:09.96 x 0.8
G2 1200 m 1:10:18 x 2.3

4-year-old:
G2 1000 m 0:56:68 x 1.3
G2 1200 m 1:11:01 x 5.5
G1 1200 m 1:07:96 x 4.0
G1 1000 m 0:57.20 x 3.3
G1 1200 m 1:07:36 x 3.0
G1 1200 m 1:10:00 x 1.8
G1 1200 m 1:08:71 x 2.8
G1 1200 m 1:08:85 x 2.0

Five-year-old year:
G2 1000 m 0:56:73 x 4.3
G2 1200 m 1:10:13 x 6.0
G1 1200 m 1:08:03 x 2.8
G2 1200 m 1:09:44 x 4.3
G1 1400 m 1:25:14 x 3.3
G1 1000 m 0:55:53 x 1.8
G1 1200 m 1:10:65 x 4.5
G1 1200 m 1:10:32 x 1.3
G1 1200 m 1:14.10 x 0.1

[Calzone Lord]

The record time for 5 furlongs on turf here is Starfish Bay's 53.75 seconds. That's an avg furlong of 10.75 for the entire race.

She did it as a 4-year-old for Pletcher at Gulfstream in 2010.


http://www.equibase.com/premium/eqbP...try=USA&race=9

Raw times are always pretty useless without a variant. In the above example, the horses had a 150 foot running start till the timer was tripped.

I have no doubt Black Caviar has been the worlds best 5 furlong turf sprinter and is an all-time great at that specialist distance and surface.

A lot of Aussie and NZ breds have done very well in Europe. They've won 3 of the last 6 runnings of the Group1 King's Stand at 5f in England.

Black Caviar's only had one lifetime try beyond 6f and it was her least impressive race at home. She won a 7f Group 1 race easily -- but didn't run to the form of her typical wins. A Group 2 race also at 7fs was faster that day.

People go nuts for an undefeated record -- and couple that with a filly beating colts. She's obviously a great turf sprinter, but she's a turf sprinter. Never thought I'd see a turf sprinter get the love and hysteria that she gets.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

Never thought I'd see a turf sprinter get the love and hysteria that she gets.

I wasn't Zenyatta's biggest fan, and in many ways she was the most overrated horse I ever saw, but she was also a far superior horse to Black Caviar. Difficult to compare the two, as they are so different, but in the hierarchy of " talent " it's kind of hard to put turf sprinters in the upper echelon.

I don't mean to knock Black Caviar, as she's obviously a very cool horse, but perspective got lost when Al Gore invented the internet.

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

i think its cool she made the trip.and won wile things were stacked against her ie the going and her injury. very sporting of the connections..imo

[brockguy]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I wasn't Zenyatta's biggest fan, and in many ways she was the most overrated horse I ever saw, but she was also a far superior horse to Black Caviar. Difficult to compare the two, as they are so different, but in the hierarchy of " talent " it's kind of hard to put turf sprinters in the upper echelon.

I don't mean to knock Black Caviar, as she's obviously a very cool horse, but perspective got lost when Al Gore invented the internet.

I can't have any of this Andy and had to respond - if you want to say more accomplished etc yeah than the races that Zenyatta has won has trumped Black Caviar in terms of prestige and accomplishment but I doubt you could find a rating system that had Zenyatta as a better horse than Black Caviar - Timeform and Racing Post Ratings have BC as a fair few pounds ahead of Zenyatta. For example Zenyatta never ran a race according to the Racing Post Ratings over 130 - in comparison Black Caviar has 9 such races! her recorded times, speeds etc are extraordinary in a fairly competitive open sprint market in Australia beating very good sprints comfortably.

In my eyes there is no question who the better horse is but hey that's just my take on it - I'm just interested in how you can rate Zenyatta as a far superior horse?