NBA CHAMPIONSHIP: Who wins and in how many games

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

We will see. I think James has shown another dimension in these playoffs by playing in the lowblock. I don't remember ever seeing that from him.

Durant has plenty of room to improve. He doesn't have a go to move and he doesn't have a post game. Can you imagine what he could do with a turnaround or a hook?

I think James is a better ball handler, passer, defender and rebounder. Durant is a better scorer. Putting it that way doesn't give durant nearly his due. It's like calling dr Fager a one dimensional speedball. If I needed a score at the end of the game, durant is who I would want to have the ball.

Actually, Durant does have a post game, he just doesn't use it often.

[Calzone Lord]

Lebron has to be the best player in the NBA. He's led the regular season in +/- for four years in a row on two different teams.

2008-2009: James (CLE) +871 (tops in NBA by 178 points)

2009-2010: James (CLE) +650 (tops in NBA by 48 points)

2010-2011: James (MIA) +619 (tops in NBA by 4 points)

2011-2012: James (MIA) +474 (tops in NBA by 53 points)


Interestingly, James is almost never in the top 15 of that stat in the playoffs.

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

Lebron has to be the best player in the NBA. He's led the regular season in +/- for four years in a row on two different teams.

2008-2009: James (CLE) +871 (tops in NBA by 178 points)

2009-2010: James (CLE) +650 (tops in NBA by 48 points)

2010-2011: James (MIA) +619 (tops in NBA by 4 points)

2011-2012: James (MIA) +474 (tops in NBA by 53 points)


Interestingly, James is almost never in the top 15 of that stat in the playoffs.

Hes the best player in the NBA, by FAR. Listen to Collin this morning or podcast it. He will be the best player for another 4-5 years. Maybe when hes 32 he will slow down a bit.

[Dahoss]

Collin Cowherd said it so it must be true.

[cmorioles]

If he were the best by far, they'd be a lock to repeat this year.

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

If he were the best by far, they'd be a lock to repeat this year.

So if your the best player in a team sport you have to win every year? Come on, you dont believe that. Does the best horse always win? Whos the best NFL player? Ill tell you right now, the Giants dont have a top 15 player.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985

So if your the best player in a team sport you have to win every year? Come on, you dont believe that. Does the best horse always win? Whos the best NFL player? Ill tell you right now, the Giants dont have a top 15 player.

You said BY FAR! That is far different than being the best player. You act like he is still in Cleveland with Mo Williams and Anthony Parker. He is playing with two great basketball players and some good role players.

This OKC has the better "team" stuff is a bunch of crap. The rosters actually match up very well. They are very close, just as KD and Lebron are. Everyone is heaping praise on Lebron for last night, and he was very good. Still, in the end, he bricked a three when up two and a chance to seal it after going strong the whole game, then fouled the hell out of KD and got away with it. Color me unimpressed at his 4Q again.

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

Collin Cowherd said it so it must be true.

Collin is the best at his job, by far. A lot like Lebron.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985

Collin is the best at his job, by far. A lot like Lebron.

Starved for attention again, huh?

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

Starved for attention again, huh?

Rumor was you had me blocked on here, nice to hear from you again.
Not at all. Im into a lot of things on this nice Friday. Plus work at 3. Its the truth. Collin is the best on the radio.
On another note....
Can anyone post a pic of Westbrooks outfit from post game last night? Im trying to buy the exact same thing for opening day Saratoga.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985

Collin is the best at his job, by far. A lot like Lebron.

Colin Cowherd and most national guys have no idea what they are watching when it comes to baseball and NBA basketball.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

Lebron has to be the best player in the NBA. He's led the regular season in +/- for four years in a row on two different teams.

2008-2009: James (CLE) +871 (tops in NBA by 178 points)

2009-2010: James (CLE) +650 (tops in NBA by 48 points)

2010-2011: James (MIA) +619 (tops in NBA by 4 points)

2011-2012: James (MIA) +474 (tops in NBA by 53 points)


Interestingly, James is almost never in the top 15 of that stat in the playoffs.

+/- is a pretty useless stat

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

+/- is a pretty useless stat

It's not so much a stat -- it's just a running score of how the team did when the player was on the floor.

For instance:

'11-12 Miami Heat with James on the floor: ahead by 474 points
'11-12 Miami Heat without James on the floor: outscored by 80 points

'10-11 Miami Heat with James on the floor: ahead by 619 points
'10-11 Miami Heat without James on the floor: Outscored by 4 points

'09-10 Cavs with James on the floor: ahead by 650 points
'09-10 Cavs without James on the floor: Outscored by 117 points

'08-09 Cavs with James on the floor: ahead by 871 points
'08-09 Cavs without James on the floor: Outscored by 142 points


So, over the last four years...

When James is on the court... his team wins by 2,614 points.

When James isn't on the court ... his team loses by 343 points.


That simply tells me he's more valuable to his team than any other player.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

It's not so much a stat -- it's just a running score of how the team did when the player was on the floor.

For instance:

'11-12 Miami Heat with James on the floor: ahead by 474 points
'11-12 Miami Heat without James on the floor: outscored by 80 points

'10-11 Miami Heat with James on the floor: ahead by 619 points
'10-11 Miami Heat without James on the floor: Outscored by 4 points

'09-10 Cavs with James on the floor: ahead by 650 points
'09-10 Cavs without James on the floor: Outscored by 117 points

'08-09 Cavs with James on the floor: ahead by 871 points
'08-09 Cavs without James on the floor: Outscored by 142 points


So, over the last four years...

When James is on the court... his team wins by 2,614 points.

When James isn't on the court ... his team loses by 343 points.


That simply tells me he's more valuable to his team than any other player.

That tells me he plays a lot of minutes on a good team. It is a team stat because good players on bad teams are unfairly punished and bad players on good teams are unfairly helped. I don't know how his team being worse when James is off the floor (meaning a substitute is playing in his place) is a meaningful stat. Stats w/o context are a waste of time

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

That tells me he plays a lot of minutes on a good team. It is a team stat because good players on bad teams are unfairly punished and bad players on good teams are unfairly helped. I don't know how his team being worse when James is off the floor (meaning a substitute is playing in his place) is a meaningful stat. Stats w/o context are a waste of time

Isn't your value to your team determined by how much better you are than your replacement?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

Isn't your value to your team determined by how much better you are than your replacement?

No it is determined by how much prodution you give them. Not to mention the lineup you play with and against can impact the number as well. If James goes out of the game the other team is likely to take out its best defensive player (assuming that is who is guarding James) because you try to get him rest when James isnt in because he plays so much. So a player on the court for Miami is now playing against a lineup w/o its best defensive player which artificially inflates the replacements +/-. Plus in a 5 on 5 situation an individual player can only have so much impact on scoring and scoring prevention. In theory if everyone was equal on a given team then they would all contribute 20% to offense and defense while on the court. But obviously that isnt reality but even the top players like James/Durant/Kobe etc can only have so much impact on scoring or defending. Other factors are starters are begining the game facing other starters (usually the other teams best players with a few notable exceptions like Harden and Ginobelli) and are playing the tougher to score minutes at the end of games. Backups are getting more time against other backups and there is sometimes a huge difference between players 5,6 and 7 on bad teams and good teams.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

It's not so much a stat -- it's just a running score of how the team did when the player was on the floor.

For instance:

'11-12 Miami Heat with James on the floor: ahead by 474 points
'11-12 Miami Heat without James on the floor: outscored by 80 points

'10-11 Miami Heat with James on the floor: ahead by 619 points
'10-11 Miami Heat without James on the floor: Outscored by 4 points

'09-10 Cavs with James on the floor: ahead by 650 points
'09-10 Cavs without James on the floor: Outscored by 117 points

'08-09 Cavs with James on the floor: ahead by 871 points
'08-09 Cavs without James on the floor: Outscored by 142 points


So, over the last four years...

When James is on the court... his team wins by 2,614 points.

When James isn't on the court ... his team loses by 343 points.


That simply tells me he's more valuable to his team than any other player.

http://www.nba.com/playoffs/2012/fin...ls=st&g=2&t=bs

Last night Derek Fisher was terrible. He couldnt hit open shots, had no assists, 1 rebound and was no factor on defense except for maybe 1 or 2 plays. He was +13. Kevin Durant was Kevin Durant and he was a -9.

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

http://www.nba.com/playoffs/2012/fin...ls=st&g=2&t=bs

Last night Derek Fisher was terrible. He couldnt hit open shots, had no assists, 1 rebound and was no factor on defense except for maybe 1 or 2 plays. He was +13. Kevin Durant was Kevin Durant and he was a -9.

Kevin Durant plays A LOT of minutes. He's not the strongest dude either.

I would bet that if he played Derek Fisher minutes he would have the best plus/minus on the team going away.

In the Spurs series -- Fisher was +27. OKC outscored the Spurs by 27 points when Fisher was on the court ... when he wasn't on the court, the Spurs outscored OKC by 1 point over the entire series.

This tells me that Derek Fisher (who has 5 rings) has been playing well in his back-up point guard role.

Harden was +47 in the Spurs Series (Spurs outscored OKC by 21 in the series when he wasn't on the court) and he also was +13 along with Fisher in a game that OKC just lost to the Miami heat.

I would feel pretty good about having Harden and Fisher as back-ups. In limited minutes, they seem to be providing a spark for their team.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

Kevin Durant plays A LOT of minutes. He's not the strongest dude either.

I would bet that if he played Derek Fisher minutes he would have the best plus/minus on the team going away.

In the Spurs series -- Fisher was +27. OKC outscored the Spurs by 27 points when Fisher was on the court ... when he wasn't on the court, the Spurs outscored OKC by 1 point over the entire series.

This tells me that Derek Fisher (who has 5 rings) has been playing well in his back-up point guard role.

Harden was +47 in the Spurs Series (Spurs outscored OKC by 21 in the series when he wasn't on the court) and he also was +13 along with Fisher in a game that OKC just lost to the Miami heat.

I would feel pretty good about having Harden and Fisher as back-ups. In limited minutes, they seem to be providing a spark for their team.

There are no metrics that would tell you Fisher has been playing well. The one you are using is not accurate because perhaps a better player would be +50 in his place.

The entire =/- stat is so misleading. It is like saying a horse who runs in 1:12.3 is better than one who runs in 1:13.2 just because the time is faster without regard to the track surface, pace, weather, etc. If SA shoots poorly it isn't necessarily because OKC or individual players defended them well. Sometimes you just miss shots. Same thing with +/-.

Fisher has been horrific

In his last 5 games (2 against Miami and 3 against SA)
Fisher has played 110 minutes (9 quarters)
He is 10-27 from the field
He is 1-13 on 3 pt shots
He has 8 rebounds
He has 7 assists (4 in one game)
He has 0 blocked shots
He has 4 steals


Honestly it is hard to be this bad and still play that many minutes but OKC doesn't really have many options outside of D. Cook who is a worse defensive player (not easy to do) and cant play point.

Westbrook almost makes me want to root for the Heat...almost. Pass. To. Durant. Hipster. Douche.