Derby replaces graded earnings with point system

[slotdirt]

Originally Posted by outofthebox

The Blue Grass and the UAE Derby have no business being in the 100 point category or considered beyond gr.3 anymore. But the Bluegrass is like Keeneland, it cant be fooled with. Since synthetic we have Monbar, General Quarters, Stately Victor and Brilliant Speed. No graded stakes on the dirt between them.

At least recent versions of the Illinois Derby have produced a couple horses who went on to run well on dirt. Recapturetheglory wasn't exactly Exterminator (or Old Rosebud), but he had a couple post-IL Derby successes. What about Yawanna Twist? Giant Oak won the Donn and the Clark later in his career. That's not even mentioning other nice Illinois Derby runners like Magna Graduate or Suave.

[Scav]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

At least recent versions of the Illinois Derby have produced a couple horses who went on to run well on dirt. Recapturetheglory wasn't exactly Exterminator (or Old Rosebud), but he had a couple post-IL Derby successes. What about Yawanna Twist? Giant Oak won the Donn and the Clark later in his career. That's not even mentioning other nice Illinois Derby runners like Magna Graduate or Suave.

The exclusion of the IL Derby is 100% politically motivated, see my last post on the issue

[Cannon Shell]

I have no problem with a point based, weighted system. However...this is hardly an ideal system that they have created over an 11 month period if you believe them.

The way this system is presented (regular season , championship season, wildcard) in nonsense and anyone with a half of a clue will see through it. CDI consistently tries to "think outside of the box" but rarely comes up with anything thing that works when it comes to anything regarding racing. Rather than try to use slogans and bullshit like this to convince people that they are having "seasons" like fantasy sports they should try to create an actual road to the Derby that makes sense and rewards trainers/owners/horses for actually participating more often.

I would use a weighted system starting w/Hopeful and Del Mar Futurity because not capitalizing on these great meets and the attention racing gets during this period is stupid. Have the next wave of races (Champagne, Norfolk, Breeders futurity) be worth a bump from the first races. Then have the Nov/Dec races be worth another bump with the BC Juvy obviously worth double points.

Then have the Jan preps be a slight bump from Nov/Dec races and so on with the big preps(SA Derby, ARK Derby, Wood, FL Derby, LA Derby, Bluegrass) worth double points but still include IL Derby and ridiclous UAE Derby as well.

CD can promote end of the month point standing with bonus money with horses with top number of points getting nice bonus if wins Derby.

You can still designate the races you want to include (ignoring graded system which seems to be important to them) and even allow a few races like Juvy Filly/euro race to earn some points though a lower amount.

This way CD can still play God by designating races that will count, still allow a really good filly in, lessen the marginalization of 2 yo racing that they have now created and promote standings so to speak for road to the derby instead of the current hodge podge of races with no real tie in to each other.

[Cannon Shell]

The big picture problem with the system CD came up with is that it completely marginalizes traditional American 2 yo racing which surely will lead to a change in the training/racing of our best horses. Of course some will think this is a good thing but is it really better to have more overtrained, underraced horses running in Derby preps and the Derby itself? By making the last round of races worth so much more than races from Setp to Jan you run the risk of having the Derby look like a glorified nw2x race as a win in those races trumps as many as 4 or 5 wins in other time frames. Trainers/owners will pick up on this and start their best horses even later which has been shown over time to be detrimental as horses with solid 2 yo campaigns are more likely to have longer careers. The new ideal campaign that people will shoot for is a Jan Maiden win, a feb/march 2nd tier stake to build points and then the big April stake to get in. We have already seem suspect handling with good horses because there is this insane logic being used that racing horses hurts them but this pushes the envelope directly towards that theory. Why run in the late Summer with a promising horse as winning the Champagne gets you the same points as running 4th in the LA Derby?

Further fractionalizing racing doesnt help the greater good which a company that owns many tracks should realize.

[Calzone Lord]

What about a point system for Horse of the Year?

It would be real hard to come up with a fair and competent one for that -- but if you had one -- maybe it could force some better racing match-ups.

A star like Zenyatta would have had to run in a race like the Big Cap, Pacific Classic, or Hollywood Gold Cup ... or at least win the Breeders Cup Classic to get Horse of the Year.

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

The big picture problem with the system CD came up with is that it completely marginalizes traditional American 2 yo racing which surely will lead to a change in the training/racing of our best horses. Of course some will think this is a good thing but is it really better to have more overtrained, underraced horses running in Derby preps and the Derby itself? By making the last round of races worth so much more than races from Setp to Jan you run the risk of having the Derby look like a glorified nw2x race as a win in those races trumps as many as 4 or 5 wins in other time frames. Trainers/owners will pick up on this and start their best horses even later which has been shown over time to be detrimental as horses with solid 2 yo campaigns are more likely to have longer careers. The new ideal campaign that people will shoot for is a Jan Maiden win, a feb/march 2nd tier stake to build points and then the big April stake to get in. We have already seem suspect handling with good horses because there is this insane logic being used that racing horses hurts them but this pushes the envelope directly towards that theory. Why run in the late Summer with a promising horse as winning the Champagne gets you the same points as running 4th in the LA Derby?

Further fractionalizing racing doesnt help the greater good which a company that owns many tracks should realize.

I agree with pretty much all of this.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

The big picture problem with the system CD came up with is that it completely marginalizes traditional American 2 yo racing which surely will lead to a change in the training/racing of our best horses. Of course some will think this is a good thing but is it really better to have more overtrained, underraced horses running in Derby preps and the Derby itself? By making the last round of races worth so much more than races from Setp to Jan you run the risk of having the Derby look like a glorified nw2x race as a win in those races trumps as many as 4 or 5 wins in other time frames. Trainers/owners will pick up on this and start their best horses even later which has been shown over time to be detrimental as horses with solid 2 yo campaigns are more likely to have longer careers. The new ideal campaign that people will shoot for is a Jan Maiden win, a feb/march 2nd tier stake to build points and then the big April stake to get in. We have already seem suspect handling with good horses because there is this insane logic being used that racing horses hurts them but this pushes the envelope directly towards that theory. Why run in the late Summer with a promising horse as winning the Champagne gets you the same points as running 4th in the LA Derby?

Further fractionalizing racing doesnt help the greater good which a company that owns many tracks should realize.

Other than the guy who sends his horse to win the Delta Jackpot with the idea its his ticket to the Derby are people really running in two year old races with the idea "hey, I am going to run in this spot because it will give me graded earnings", or are they running in the race because its money and they think they can win it with a precocious developed two year old?

I would also argue we are already there as far as the new way horses are being brought along for the Triple Crown, look no further than Bafferts Bode and Paynter.

What I am hoping is that you have a decent two year old with say 15 points, that they dont just map a 2 race campaign because they already have the earnings. If you do that and have a couple bad trips you could be screwed. Maybe it forces the more traditional 3 or 4 race campaign to ensure enough points. We need horses running more, not less.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

Other than the guy who sends his horse to win the Delta Jackpot with the idea its his ticket to the Derby are people really running in two year old races with the idea "hey, I am going to run in this spot because it will give me graded earnings", or are they running in the race because its money and they think they can win it with a precocious developed two year old?

I would also argue we are already there as far as the new way horses are being brought along for the Triple Crown, look no further than Bafferts Bode and Paynter.

What I am hoping is that you have a decent two year old with say 15 points, that they dont just map a 2 race campaign because they already have the earnings. If you do that and have a couple bad trips you could be screwed. Maybe it forces the more traditional 3 or 4 race campaign to ensure enough points. We need horses running more, not less.

Believe me owners/trainers are very aware of the graded earnings in those races. Because CD chose to make those races so worthless I can't help but feel that many will take a pass on any type of real campaign (which nowdays would be 4 races). I think that that the trend of starting horses later will grow especially with GP opening in December. IMO that is not a positive trend. Sure it isn't like the Champagne won't be run but the quality of fields in these types of fall races outside of the BC will surely be negatively impacted over time. Especially when you can follow the Hansen model of running twice against crows and winning the BC and being champion. More or less they are turning the BC juvy into the end all-be all for the 2 yo division (not that it wasnt heading that way anyway) but we will see a mad scamble in Jan-April as untested, under raced horses are tossed into the fire to grab some points. I realize that we have been trending this way but by making the big preps worth 10 times more than every qualifying stake run before Feb you are going to accelerate that trend. And i just cant think that this is a positive.

[XIIPointStables]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Believe me owners/trainers are very aware of the graded earnings in those races. Because CD chose to make those races so worthless I can't help but feel that many will take a pass on any type of real campaign (which nowdays would be 4 races). I think that that the trend of starting horses later will grow especially with GP opening in December. IMO that is not a positive trend. Sure it isn't like the Champagne won't be run but the quality of fields in these types of fall races outside of the BC will surely be negatively impacted over time. Especially when you can follow the Hansen model of running twice against crows and winning the BC and being champion. More or less they are turning the BC juvy into the end all-be all for the 2 yo division (not that it wasnt heading that way anyway) but we will see a mad scamble in Jan-April as untested, under raced horses are tossed into the fire to grab some points. I realize that we have been trending this way but by making the big preps worth 10 times more than every qualifying stake run before Feb you are going to accelerate that trend. And i just cant think that this is a positive.

As a race fan this is one of the two big red-flags I see with the plan. Love the 2 yo races at Saratoga and wonder if these races won't be as juicy, as trainers start later/aim later for the races with more points. And would have thought races like the Hopeful and Del Mar Futurity would have some points attached.

The other red flag is CDI being able to to decide what races are important to qualify for the most well-known race in our sport in the US. Lot of power there. Poor Hawthorne got crushed with this thing and as others as posted, probably on purpose.

[Travis Stone]

The idea that suddenly NYRA will only have one 2yo race per week and 4 horses in their 2yo stakes at Saratoga because of this new Derby system is funny.

And I also cannot imagine any trainer with a talented horse will ever say, "Let's wait until February to start, so we can break our Maiden, and then get a nifty stakes score in March, stay undefeated via the 100 pointer in April and win the Derby." That might be more silly.