Projecting figures for very old races.

[blackthroatedwind]

Count Fleet.

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Count Fleet.

He was sensationally fast as a 2yo. Whirlaway and Citation were both slower 2yo's but very clearly faster as a 3yo.

[Calzone Lord]

It's been documented that he took advantage of a bias -- but General Assembley's Travers was one of the fastest figures ever from a 3yo.

He won the Travers by 15 lengnths over a wet racetrack -- in a track record time that still stands at Saratoga today.

* Smarten (off of 6 straight clear wins - 5 of which at the Graded Stakes level - and often giving weight) was 2nd by 15 lengths. He came back with five straight Graded Stakes placings in his next five starts.




* Private Account (a multiple Grade 1 stakes winner. Famously sired two hall-of-famers in Personal Ensign and Inside Information -- and was one of the great broodmare sires I've ever seen) was 3rd by 26 lengths.




* Davona Dale (A champion filly who won 5 Grade 1's that year and won the Kentucky Oaks by 4.5 lengths in 1:47.20 in her other sloppy track start that season) was 4th by 28.75 lengths. She was beaten 3.5 lengths in the Maskette next out.

* Steady Growth (The Queen's Plate winner and a next out 2nd in the Prince of Wales one week later) King Green (a next out ALW winner at Belmont a few weeks later) and Screen King (multiple Graded Stakes winner, never ran again) --- this trio was all beaten 30+ lengths.


General Assembly 128
Smarten 107
Private Account 91
Davona Dale 87

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ok1e0Yez_s

[Kasept]

Dougie..

Pull out Gen. Duke & Bold Ruler's races v. one another from FL in late winter '57. Everglades, Bahamas, Flamingo, FL Derby.

Should be a pip.

[FATPIANO]

I have always wondered what The Bid's Beyers would be. Have you ever calculated the beyers for the Bid

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by FATPIANO

I have always wondered what The Bid's Beyers would be. Have you ever calculated the beyers for the Bid

Very fast at all ages, very consistant at all ages, very heavily raced and travelled at all ages. I've posted about him many times.

His fastest race at age 2 was the LRL Futrity. The LRL Futurity was his 3rd Grade 1 in less than 3 weeks - in three different states no less.

He broke the 8.5f track record at LRL by a full second. General Assembly was 2nd by 8.5 lengths. Clever Trick (who was 18-for-29 lifetime and an excellent 2yo) was 3rd by 20.5 lengths. Tim The Tiger (a Grade 1 winner who brought a 5-for-6 lifetime record into the race) was 4th by 25 lengths.

He basically lived in the low to mid 120's at age 3 and lived in the mid 120's to low 130's at age 4.

Bid's fastest race at age 3 was probably the Malboro.

Won by 5 over General Assembly. GA won the Travers by 15 in his prior start and took the Vosburgh over older sprinters in his final career start.




Coastal was 3rd in that race. He came back to run a good 2nd to the older Affirmed next out. Czaravich (a soundly beaten 3rd) won his next three starts on dirt including a win in the Met Mile under 126lbs.




Cox's Ridge (an older horse who was 16-for-28 in his career and a Met Mile winner) was 4th




Star De Naskra (who had crossed the wire first in 7 straight) was 6th.




Bid was even consistantly faster at age 4 until the last race or two.

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Dougie..

Pull out Gen. Duke & Bold Ruler's races v. one another from FL in late winter '57. Everglades, Bahamas, Flamingo, FL Derby.

Should be a pip.

I'm pretty sure I've already done some of them from that year. Will have to look through my notebook I was using and find them when I get the time.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

He was sensationally fast as a 2yo. Whirlaway and Citation were both slower 2yo's but very clearly faster as a 3yo.

Not clear.

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Not clear.

I know you've told me an old time figure maker in NY said he was one of the fastest.

He ran just six times at age 3 - in five stakes races.

His wins in the Wood, Derby, Preakness, and Withers - I'm pretty confident are not faster than 114 tops. There are a lot of other races to work with on those cards.

The race I think your friend might be refering to - is his 25 length win in the Belmont in his final start.

There was another route the day Count Fleet won the Belmont - also at 12fs - it was a MSW race that went 7.20 full seconds slower. However, it was a pretty horrid looking MSW race on paper. Count Fleet only beat two horses in the Belmont...and they both had poor form.

The Belmont figure was probably very fast -- but it's the hardest one by far to do from his 3yo races.

Whirlaway ran A LOT faster in the Derby. They carded a lot of the same type of races in the Derby in those days.

[Calzone Lord]

Here's a comparison of some charts from the '41 Kentucky Derby (Whirlaway) card and the '43 Kentucky Derby (Count Fleet) card.


'41: Brown Hotel:




'43: Brown Hotel:




'41: French Lick:




'43: French Lick:




As you can see ... the sprints were pretty close this year. Both editions of the Brown Hotel went in 1:11 2/5ths. Both editions of the French Lick featured 4 length winners ... but the '43 edition went 4/5ths slower... although it was won by a 26/1 shot where the favorites dominated in the faster edition.

[Calzone Lord]

'41: Kentucky Derby:




'43: Kentucky Derby:




'41: $1,250 CLM Route:



'43: $2,000 CLM Route:





Whirlaway's raw final time was 22 points faster than Count Fleet's. However, I had the '41 track 13 points faster in routes than the '43 track.

Whirlaway's Derby was 122. Count Fleet's Derby was 113.

Whirlaway's Derby certainy held up well:

2nd place finisher Staretor (111) returned to So. Cal after the Ky Derby and finished first in his next 3 starts - including a Hollywood Derby win at 10fs - before an injury sidelined him.

3rd place finisher Market Wise (110) came into the Derby 4-for-4 lifetime in routes - and was a last out Wood Memorial winner. He was later a champion older male.

4th place finisher Porter's Cap (107) won the Santa Anita Derby by 4 lengths - and was a easy last out winner of the Chesapeake Stakes in his Eastern prep for the Derby

5th place finisher Little Beans (105) was 11-7-2-1 lifetime - and his one off the board finish was the result of a DQ in a race he finished first.

Flamingo winner Dispose finished 6th - last out 6 length winner of the Blue Grass Our Boots finished 8th.

Great video clip on Whirlaway: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6o-5TR0m5N8 (His win in the Preakness was an AMAZING film)