NYRA Knockers TAKE THIS!!!

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by eurobounce

Who cares about admissions and costs of refreshments. New Yorkers dont even go to the track with the exception of Saratoga. Big deal if they raise the price of admission. And by the way, it is only $2 to get into Churchill so I don't understand this arguement that admissions would increase. To me that point is a non issue. The issue here is running an organization without having to ask the state for millions of dollars. If I lived in New York and I didnt care about horse racing I would be pissed that millions are going to support a non-profit. I would be even more pissed if I worked at a non-profit hospital and havent had a raise in years and I saw the NYRA getting millions of dollars to bail out a poor business model. Also, I am assuming the NYRA is clean now because no one is really complaining about corruption. However, that stigma will always be there and rightfully so. The new leadership has to change the culture before people can start having confidence in the "new" NYRA.

It cost me $25 to get in to Churchill on Oaks Day and $40 on Derby Day. Not to mention they doubled the prices of every item in the concession stands. On Traver's Day I had to pay $5 and all the concessions were the same price. I could have brought in a case of beer if I wanted to as well. I definitely don't want to see Saratoga become like Churchill.

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

It cost me $25 to get in to Churchill on Oaks Day and $40 on Derby Day. Not to mention they doubled the prices of every item in the concession stands. On Traver's Day I had to pay $5 and all the concessions were the same price. I could have brought in a case of beer if I wanted to as well. I definitely don't want to see Saratoga become like Churchill.

You are singling out two days of racing at Churchill. That is really unfair. Plus it is the two biggest days of racing other than the Breeders Cup. And it cost my buddy $25 for Travers day I think. I know that was the ticket price on their web site. And you can eat for around $6 at churchill at the restaurant. And beers are expensive but who cares. How many times do you go to the track per year?

[ELA]

I don't have a dog in this specific fight, but I race horses in NY so I do have a vested interest.

I think many people tend to look at the present situation -- and then often collapse the present situation with blame. I am not inferring that the present is an inherited situation. I am also not saying NYRA is an "angel" and has never done anything wrong; nor am I saying that everything is their fault. However, everything we see today is not due to NYRA, corruption, management, etc. What we see today, in my opinion, is an accumulation of numerous aspects -- not only of NYRA, management, etc. -- but of the industry in general.

The business model in NY, NY racing as a business and as a sport, has been broken for years. I didn't see any bidders hanging around and pushing for the franchise until the VLT legislation got passed. They didn't start pushing until the VLT deal was made. (I think we can all agree that is the VLT's were not approved -- nobody would be pushing, bidding, etc. on the franchise unless the land was up for grabs as well; or perhaps OTB).

Now, in my opinion, this is reflective of a bigger issue -- alternative revenue source(s) being available to fund the racing business. Keeneland gets a tremendous amount of money, revenue, directly from the sales company. Alternative revenue sources are very often an ancillary, then becoming a primary solution to a present problem -- a problem where a business model is broken. Now that doesn't mean that VLT's are the solution to the racing industry because we know it is not. VLT money will find its way into purse accounts, but we know the trickle-down, trickle-over, etc. effect will not happen. VLT players do not become fans nor do they become visitors to the windows -- not to any significant degree.

What will still hurt is that the tax rate (for the VLT dollars) in NY is extremely high.

You want to argue about non-profit vs. for-profit? Here is what most people do not understand -- non-profit is a tax status, not a management style.

What about Woodbine? What does their business model look like? A partnership between the government and the track, and it has proven successful. It has had a very positive impact on purses. What has it done for pure racetrack attendance, handle, etc.? This is very dangerous -- so at Finger Lakes management decides to invest $4m or so into the VLT side of the facility and goes against getting a turf course. Management said it was a "business" decision, a ROR/ROI decision, etc. But Woodbine has put money into the racetrack side of the facility.

This business and this sport -- not only in NY, but all over -- needs to reinvent itself. Not drastic change that completely changes the business and sport, but change the mindset and management style of running a track as a business and running a business in and around this sport.

Eric

[blackthroatedwind]

Geez, Eric, I never realized you were such a smart guy.

[ELA]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Geez, Eric, I never realized you were such a smart guy.

LOL. Thanks Andy. I think you never realized it because I am always asking you for your opinion! LOL.

Anyway -- no offense everyone, but this has nothing to do with the prices of hotdogs and beer, or admission and parking for that matter.

Do not confuse cause and effect. Those elements would correct themselves if the larger, marcro-issues were addressed. I don't want to start another arguement here but the sport and the business around this sport has changed. It is not what it used to be 40 or 50 years ago. Some, all, or part of this has evolved into an entertainment environment. You know what's changed since then? Everything.

There are parts of this that are evolutionary and there are other parts that are revolutionary. Now I know the old fashion, diehard, hard-core, etc. gambler types will absolutely despise this and what's going on in our industry -- but today's racing facility, the product, and numeorus other aspects of sport/business are without question competing with other mediums and environments for our dollars. You don't have to like it or deal with it but it is a fact. OTB, off-shore, internet wagering, the back room at the bar, etc. -- all of them are competition. The casinos, race books, and other forms of entertainment and gambling, whether pari-mutuel or not. The products may be different, but we are talking about gambling dollars, entertainment, costs, etc.

Many people do not like what Frank Stronach is doing down at Gulfstream. I've been there numerous times so I am not speaking absent of facts. Stronach is a visionary. You may hate the vision, but he has one. You may think he is inept at running a publicly traded company. You may think he is guilty of many things. But he is committed to the vision.

Sports bars, fine dining, cigar lounges, VLT's, shows, and other forms of entertainment. Retail, commercial, other real estate strucutures. This will bring people to a facility. The track will be there. Will they turn into fans? Will they turn into gamblers? Will they turn into regulars? Possible -- not probable; not to a significant extent or degree. That is not the only answer though.

But this, and the alternative forms of revenue will find its way into purses. It will trickle into other areas. There will be ancillary effects -- yes, both positive and negative -- in other aspects. This should contribute and make progress toward more competitive fields and more competitive racing throughout a meet. This could attract people to the business (ownership; although that's another aspect of the business that needs to be cleaned up). This should lead to increased handle -- not just on-track handle however. Sure, there are several "shoulds" and "coulds" there -- but that is what's needed. A new paradigm. A paradigm shift in the way this sport and this business is looked at, operated, and run.

I don't mean to oversimplify the problems or the solutions. This ain't your mom and pop grocery store anymore. You can't run it like it is.

Eric

Eric I agree with you. Tracks cannot survive by just offering racing anymore. There needs to be other sources of revenue. Hopefully that revenue finds it was into purses. Who cares if a non-racing fan goes to the "racino" and takes in a show, or eats dinner or watches a movie. The point is that revenue is being generated to increase purses and that helps fields, horseman and basically the industry. If 1 of a thousand people turn into a horse player then it was a success. If not, horsemen will gladly accept the money the patrons spent on dinner or other forms of entertainment.

The business needs to evolve and not digress. It needs to transform likes other forms of entertainment has. I think it has a long long way to go but with people like Frank we can get there. Not saying his way is right, but at least he is trying.

[ELA]

Originally Posted by eurobounce

Eric I agree with you. Tracks cannot survive by just offering racing anymore. There needs to be other sources of revenue. Hopefully that revenue finds it was into purses. Who cares if a non-racing fan goes to the "racino" and takes in a show, or eats dinner or watches a movie. The point is that revenue is being generated to increase purses and that helps fields, horseman and basically the industry. If 1 of a thousand people turn into a horse player then it was a success. If not, horsemen will gladly accept the money the patrons spent on dinner or other forms of entertainment.

The business needs to evolve and not digress. It needs to transform likes other forms of entertainment has. I think it has a long long way to go but with people like Frank we can get there. Not saying his way is right, but at least he is trying.

What worries me is that if this sport and this business does not capture attendance, on-track handle, new fans, etc. -- eventually legislation may get to the point where racetrack operators will only need to have very short meets or no meet at all in order to keep their "racinos" open. That evolution worries me. I remember the Meadowlands years ago doing concerts with popular local NJ (and tri-state bands). Was it a huge success? No, but they did get "flow over" and people came in watched races, had dinner, etc. Yes, they aren't doing great but that may be reflective of the industry, not of the Meadowlands or NJ.

Revenue from the Keenelands sales company is feeding the track and the racing side of the game. Is it subsidizing? Yes, it sure is. However, subsidies are a part of many major industries and governments. That's a discussion for another time though, LOL.

Let's hope that progress, not regress, occurs.

Eric

Originally Posted by ELA

I don't have a dog in this specific fight, but I race horses in NY so I do have a vested interest.

I think many people tend to look at the present situation -- and then often collapse the present situation with blame. I am not inferring that the present is an inherited situation. I am also not saying NYRA is an "angel" and has never done anything wrong; nor am I saying that everything is their fault. However, everything we see today is not due to NYRA, corruption, management, etc. What we see today, in my opinion, is an accumulation of numerous aspects -- not only of NYRA, management, etc. -- but of the industry in general.

The business model in NY, NY racing as a business and as a sport, has been broken for years. I didn't see any bidders hanging around and pushing for the franchise until the VLT legislation got passed. They didn't start pushing until the VLT deal was made. (I think we can all agree that is the VLT's were not approved -- nobody would be pushing, bidding, etc. on the franchise unless the land was up for grabs as well; or perhaps OTB).

Now, in my opinion, this is reflective of a bigger issue -- alternative revenue source(s) being available to fund the racing business. Keeneland gets a tremendous amount of money, revenue, directly from the sales company. Alternative revenue sources are very often an ancillary, then becoming a primary solution to a present problem -- a problem where a business model is broken. Now that doesn't mean that VLT's are the solution to the racing industry because we know it is not. VLT money will find its way into purse accounts, but we know the trickle-down, trickle-over, etc. effect will not happen. VLT players do not become fans nor do they become visitors to the windows -- not to any significant degree.

What will still hurt is that the tax rate (for the VLT dollars) in NY is extremely high.

You want to argue about non-profit vs. for-profit? Here is what most people do not understand -- non-profit is a tax status, not a management style.

What about Woodbine? What does their business model look like? A partnership between the government and the track, and it has proven successful. It has had a very positive impact on purses. What has it done for pure racetrack attendance, handle, etc.? This is very dangerous -- so at Finger Lakes management decides to invest $4m or so into the VLT side of the facility and goes against getting a turf course. Management said it was a "business" decision, a ROR/ROI decision, etc. But Woodbine has put money into the racetrack side of the facility.

This business and this sport -- not only in NY, but all over -- needs to reinvent itself. Not drastic change that completely changes the business and sport, but change the mindset and management style of running a track as a business and running a business in and around this sport.

Eric

Very nice post.

[ELA]

Originally Posted by eurobounce

Very nice post.

By the way -- thank you.

Eric

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by eurobounce

You are singling out two days of racing at Churchill. That is really unfair. Plus it is the two biggest days of racing other than the Breeders Cup. And it cost my buddy $25 for Travers day I think. I know that was the ticket price on their web site. And you can eat for around $6 at churchill at the restaurant. And beers are expensive but who cares. How many times do you go to the track per year?

It was $5 for general admission on Traver's Day, as opposed to $3 every other day. I have been to the track about 30-40 days in the past year.

[Revolution]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

It was $5 for general admission on Traver's Day, as opposed to $3 every other day. I have been to the track about 30-40 days in the past year.

When did the Travers become the equivalent of the Kentucky Derby. That is a joke. The Travers crowd is all NY, CT, NJ people. The Derby is 150,000 people from all over the world, with huge television ratings.

Most people have never even heard of the Travers. The Mid Summer Derby name is a complete joke.

Originally Posted by Revolution

When did the Travers become the equivalent of the Kentucky Derby. That is a joke. The Travers crowd is all NY, CT, NJ people. The Derby is 150,000 people from all over the world, with huge television ratings.

Most people have never even heard of the Travers. The Mid Summer Derby name is a complete joke.

Ok, so having more people at CD justifies 10 dollar hot dogs and 40 bucks just to get in the gate? oaks day is the same thing. A total rip off.

[Revolution]

Originally Posted by oracle80

Ok, so having more people at CD justifies 10 dollar hot dogs and 40 bucks just to get in the gate? oaks day is the same thing. A total rip off.

It sure does. Just like the Superbowl or World Series. It is America, the market sets the price, except in NY Racing where non-profits and corruption run rampant. I thought you were a Republican and believed in the free market. I guess it is another case of you talking out of both sides of your mouth. That must get tiring switching back and forth so often.

Face it, nobody cares about the Travers except horse racing fans. The KY Derby is a huge event, the rating are huge every year. The Travers would get cut for little league baseball, because little league baseball gets higher ratings.

Originally Posted by Revolution

It sure does. Just like the Superbowl or World Series. It is America, the market sets the price, except in NY Racing where non-profits and corruption run rampant. I thought you were a Republican and believed in the free market. I guess it is another case of you talking out of both sides of your mouth. That must get tiring switching back and forth so often.

Face it, nobody cares about the Travers except horse racing fans. The KY Derby is a huge event, the rating are huge every year. The Travers would get cut for little league baseball, because little league baseball gets higher ratings.

Of course I believe in a free market. And the fact is that NYRA has always chosen not to rip people off at Saratoga, whenthey could have easily raised seat prices or admission prices in a huge fashion. They did not, and because of it fans should be grateful.
So what are you doing today after you get done with another episode of "as the imbecile rants" on here. My guess is that the next thing you have scheduled could cause you to go blind.

[sumitas]

Originally Posted by Revolution

It sure does. Just like the Superbowl or World Series. It is America, the market sets the price, except in NY Racing where non-profits and corruption run rampant. I thought you were a Republican and believed in the free market. I guess it is another case of you talking out of both sides of your mouth. That must get tiring switching back and forth so often.

Face it, nobody cares about the Travers except horse racing fans. The KY Derby is a huge event, the rating are huge every year. The Travers would get cut for little league baseball, because little league baseball gets higher ratings.

If this were your free market then all 3 tracks would go to different owners and chaos would reign...capitalism is good to a point. There are also very bad aspects of capitalism. Exploitation, price fixing if the business is large enough. NYRA model, tweeked, is far and away the best model for NY racing.

We don't have NY racing just to make Robber Barons even richer.