7/2-4 (BEL): Suburban/Dwyer; Futurity/Matron/Bed o' Roses; Prioress

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by JJP

OK you got me. The winners of the 2001 and 2002 Prioress were good horses. I guess I should've specified since 2003. Here's the roster of winners since 2003:

2003: House Party
2004: Friendly Michelle
2005: Acey Deucey
2006: Wildcat Bettie B
2007: Dream Rush
2008: Indian Blessing
2009: Cat Moves
2010: Fanny Freud
2011: Her Smile

Like I said earlier, Indian Blessing is a legit Grade 1 horse. Dream Rush? Maybe on her best day. None of the others were worthy of the inflated Grade 1 rating this race has somehow managed to keep. THAT is the truth.

To be fair, Dream Rush was very good, Fanny Freud as well ( don't forget she got hurt after the race and was retired but her resume holds up just fine for this to be a Grade 1..and Acorn/Test winner Champagne D'Oro was in there as well ). I don't have the complete fields, or all the race records, but overall, if you did a fair evaluation, this race holds up OK in that division.

The Gradings system is far from perfect, and there are many races that deserve reevaluation, but considering it is the only 6F Grade 1 for this division, I think it's grading is relatively warranted, if not moreso. What about the slew of synthetic races that got their Gradings when they were dirt races? Is the Spinster a better Grade 1, or worse, than the Prioress, since the switch in surfaces?

Simply put, you can't fairly cherry pick. The discussion needs to be had in its entirety. I am not saying I am against a serious regrading of US races. But, this race always draws these kinds of comments, and they are not as defendable as it may seem on the surface, and the Grading is far more justifiable than any number of annual races.

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

The Gradings system is far from perfect, and there are many races that deserve reevaluation, but considering it is the only 6F Grade 1 for this division, I think it's grading is relatively warranted, if not moreso. What about the slew of synthetic races that got their Gradings when they were dirt races? Is the Spinster a better Grade 1, or worse, than the Prioress, since the switch in surfaces?

Simply put, you can't fairly cherry pick. The discussion needs to be had in its entirety. I am not saying I am against a serious regrading of US races. But, this race always draws these kinds of comments, and they are not as defendable as it may seem on the surface, and the Grading is far more justifiable than any number of annual races.

Before disagreeing with you on the grading of the Prioress, just wanted to say that the MSG show for the race on Monday was excellent. The new pair of Maggie Wolfendale and Mig brought a lot to the telecast, and your analysis of the race was spot on. Looking forward to this week's Man 'O War telecast.

I get the argument about relative merits, but if you compare the depth of the Prioress to races like the Test or the La Brea (the other grade I sprints for 3YO fillies), the Prioress annually seems to come up short of those two. Perhaps this is unfair, but the Prioress is more often like a prep for the Test than an "end" in itself, and I'm dubious of preps being Grade Is (i.e., when they made the Fountain of Youth a Grade I for a short period of time a few years ago even though it's a prep for the Florida Derby). Not that this year is the best example, but the other thing that has hurt the Prioress in many years is its close proximity to the Azalea at Calder. Both races feed the Test nicely, but they also dilute each other.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

I get the argument about relative merits, but if you compare the depth of the Prioress to races like the Test or the La Brea (the other grade I sprints for 3YO fillies), the Prioress annually seems to come up short of those two. Perhaps this is unfair, but the Prioress is more often like a prep for the Test than an "end" in itself, and I'm dubious of preps being Grade Is (i.e., when they made the Fountain of Youth a Grade I for a short period of time a few years ago even though it's a prep for the Florida Derby). Not that this year is the best example, but the other thing that has hurt the Prioress in many years is its close proximity to the Azalea at Calder. Both races feed the Test nicely, but they also dilute each other.

I wouldn't agree that the Prioress is merely a "prep" for the Test. I don't think, generally speaking, horses, particularly sprinters, are really prepping from one race to the next in midseason. In the realm of strictly 3yo filly sprinters (which is by no means some mother lode of great racing talent) it lays a decent enough claim to its Grade 1 ranking. The last 4 runnings of the Prioress have produced at least one subsequent Grade 1 winner each. In several of the last few runnings, there has been at least one previous Grade 1 winner entered in the race. That's no mean feat when you mention that there are only a couple of Grade 1 races for the 3yo sprint division to begin with.

If the Test and the La Brea are drawing better fields a big part of it is the 7f distance each race is carded at. That will draw in several route types on top of the sprint population. The La Brea also has calendar position over the Prioress, being late in the year so that it draws in a lot of well meant comebackers, a few late bloomers, and also has the benefit of an extra 5 months whereby some horses that weren't accomplished around the time of the Prioress, suddenly are major stakes winners.

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

I wouldn't agree that the Prioress is merely a "prep" for the Test. I don't think, generally speaking, horses, particularly sprinters, are really prepping from one race to the next in midseason. In the realm of strictly 3yo filly sprinters (which is by no means some mother lode of great racing talent) it lays a decent enough claim to its Grade 1 ranking. The last 4 runnings of the Prioress have produced at least one subsequent Grade 1 winner each. In several of the last few runnings, there has been at least one previous Grade 1 winner entered in the race. That's no mean feat when you mention that there are only a couple of Grade 1 races for the 3yo sprint division to begin with.

It's not "merely a prep" for the Test, but when how often do you hear connections say that they are pointing to the Prioress? If you look at horses like Fanny Freud and Dream Rush, their connections had stated that they were pointing to the Test, and the Prioress was the bridge to get them there.

Maybe it's just a matter of how you view "Grade I" racing. To me, Grade I ratings should be reserved solely for "championship" quality races. (There are far too many that have the designation these days, but that's another discussion.) While the Test has generally had deep fields worthy of the designation, the Prioress has often not had fields of similar depth or quality. It's not to say that the Prioress is a "bad" race, I just don't believe it's worthy of a Grade I designation.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

It's not "merely a prep" for the Test, but when how often do you hear connections say that they are pointing to the Prioress? If you look at horses like Fanny Freud and Dream Rush, their connections had stated that they were pointing to the Test, and the Prioress was the bridge to get them there.

Maybe it's just a matter of how you view "Grade I" racing. To me, Grade I ratings should be reserved solely for "championship" quality races. (There are far too many that have the designation these days, but that's another discussion.) While the Test has generally had deep fields worthy of the designation, the Prioress has often not had fields of similar depth or quality. It's not to say that the Prioress is a "bad" race, I just don't believe it's worthy of a Grade I designation.

Breeders like selling G1 winners, what does quality have to do with a good sales pitch?

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Breeders like selling G1 winners, what does quality have to do with a good sales pitch?

Isn't that the problem with having a TOBA commitee determining race grades?

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

It's not "merely a prep" for the Test, but when how often do you hear connections say that they are pointing to the Prioress? If you look at horses like Fanny Freud and Dream Rush, their connections had stated that they were pointing to the Test, and the Prioress was the bridge to get them there.

I wouldn't argue with the Test being the most important race of the year for 3yo filly sprinters, and one of the biggest for any 3yo filly in this country (thinking back to when horses like Go For Wand, Versailles Treaty, Heavenly Prize, etc contested the race).

But that doesn't mean there's some sort of Derby trail-like road to get them to the race. It's a 7 furlong sprint. I think its safe to say for the most part that horses that run in races like the Acorn, Prioress, Azalea, etc. before the Test, are in those races to win. In addition, since most of the same horses shows up from race to race within the division, you have to think that all the Grade 1 races in a given division are affected.

If the Prioress has been weak for years now, then I'd presume that the Test itself hasn't been so hot, either.

Where's the list of the last 10 Test winners? We already know that a good chunk of them were Prioress winners, too.

While the Test has generally had deep fields worthy of the designation, the Prioress has often not had fields of similar depth or quality. It's not to say that the Prioress is a "bad" race, I just don't believe it's worthy of a Grade I designation.

Well, the Prioress was only made a Grade 1 about 10 years ago so it must have been doing something right to get that far. With the shift in NYRA stakes recently essentially ending the Triple Tiara of old, the Acorn has taken a more prominent role in the 3yo filly sprint ranks. Since the Prioress sits between that prestigious race and the Test, I think its possible that the Prioress will grow stronger over time. Like I said, it's at least maintaining a "one Grade 1 winner" quota for the last several runnings. They might have to change the distances to make them more logical.

[JJP]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

To be fair, Dream Rush was very good, Fanny Freud as well ( don't forget she got hurt after the race and was retired but her resume holds up just fine for this to be a Grade 1..and Acorn/Test winner Champagne D'Oro was in there as well ). I don't have the complete fields, or all the race records, but overall, if you did a fair evaluation, this race holds up OK in that division.

The Gradings system is far from perfect, and there are many races that deserve reevaluation, but considering it is the only 6F Grade 1 for this division, I think it's grading is relatively warranted, if not moreso. What about the slew of synthetic races that got their Gradings when they were dirt races? Is the Spinster a better Grade 1, or worse, than the Prioress, since the switch in surfaces?

Simply put, you can't fairly cherry pick. The discussion needs to be had in its entirety. I am not saying I am against a serious regrading of US races. But, this race always draws these kinds of comments, and they are not as defendable as it may seem on the surface, and the Grading is far more justifiable than any number of annual races.

I agree 100% re: the synthetic races. The Blue Grass has become a joke. Maybe it looked like I was picking on the Prioress (which I am) but it isn't the only one. But it is a prime example of how the Graded Stakes committee appears to be asleep at the wheel. And when those Kee races are run again, this point will probably be revisited.

[Indian Charlie]

All this talk about downgrading g1s is pointless right now, because due to the lack of quality horses lately, there really aren't many grade 1 caliber races being run anywhere in the USA.

And by the word 'many', I'm being generous.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by JJP

I agree 100% re: the synthetic races. The Blue Grass has become a joke. Maybe it looked like I was picking on the Prioress (which I am) but it isn't the only one. But it is a prime example of how the Graded Stakes committee appears to be asleep at the wheel. And when those Kee races are run again, this point will probably be revisited.

It is not a " prime example " of how the Graded Stakes committee is " asleep at the wheel " and if you read the arguments after my post you will understand that better.

[JJP]

Why do 3 year old fillies need to have a Grade 1 at 6 furlongs? The best fillies invariably run in the longer races. And if there are 3 YO fillies worthy of Grade 1 quality sprinting, they can test their mettle against older horses.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by JJP

Why do 3 year old fillies need to have a Grade 1 at 6 furlongs? The best fillies invariably run in the longer races. And if there are 3 YO fillies worthy of Grade 1 quality sprinting, they can test their mettle against older horses.

Nobody HAS to have anything....but that's an odd turn your argument has now taken.

[JJP]

OK so lets see who's run in there in the past 9 years. I will give you Indian Blessing and Champagne D'oro and Dream Rush. I will even throw in Fanny Freud, although that could be a stretch. I will even throw in this years winner, even though she had a perfect pace setup. Let's say an average of 8 horses per race that would make 72 entrants and 5 worthy of Grade 1 quality. That's about 7%. The evidence speaks for itself. There's been years where the race didn't merit Grade 2, let alone Grade 1.

I don't look for it to be downgraded since this years running was probably the deepest in years. At least this year there was a filly coming in w/a triple digit Beyer.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by JJP

OK so lets see who's run in there in the past 9 years. I will give you Indian Blessing and Champagne D'oro and Dream Rush. I will even throw in Fanny Freud, although that could be a stretch. I will even throw in this years winner, even though she had a perfect pace setup. Let's say an average of 8 horses per race that would make 72 entrants and 5 worthy of Grade 1 quality. That's about 7%. The evidence speaks for itself. There's been years where the race didn't merit Grade 2, let alone Grade 1.

I don't look for it to be downgraded since this years running was probably the deepest in years. At least this year there was a filly coming in w/a triple digit Beyer.

You need to stop arguing from weakness....and maybe even read the posts in this thread....as you have not analyzed the fields in any way.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by JJP

OK so lets see who's run in there in the past 9 years. I will give you Indian Blessing and Champagne D'oro and Dream Rush. I will even throw in Fanny Freud, although that could be a stretch. I will even throw in this years winner, even though she had a perfect pace setup. Let's say an average of 8 horses per race that would make 72 entrants and 5 worthy of Grade 1 quality. That's about 7%. The evidence speaks for itself. There's been years where the race didn't merit Grade 2, let alone Grade 1.

2010: Franny Freud (G2 before), Champagne D'Oro (G1 before/after), Bonnie Blue Flag (G1p after)
2009: Gabby's Golden Gal (G1 before/after), Cat Moves (G1p after), Be Fair (G3, G1p after)
2008: Indian Blessing (G1 before/after), Secret Gypsy (mG2 after),
2007: Appealing Zophie (G1 before), Dream Rush (G2 before, G1 after)
2006: Misty Rosette (G3 before, G1p after), Wild Gams (mG3 before/after), Downthedustyroad (scratched, G1 after), Diplomat Lady (G1, G2 before), Win McCool (G3 after)
2005: Sense of Style (G1, G2 before), Acey Deucey (G2 before), Maddalena (G3 before), Burnish (G3 before)
2004: Bending Strings (G2, mG3 before/G2, mG1p after), Forest Music (G3 before/ G2, G1p after), Friendly Michelle (G3, mG1p before), Bohemian Lady (G3 before)
2003: Chimichurri (G3 before), House Party (G2 before/G3, G1p after), Sensibly Chic (G2 after), Wild Snitch (G3, G1p before), Randaroo (mG2, mG1p after), Belong To Sea (G3 before)
2002: Carson Hollow (G2, G1p after), Spring Meadow (G3, mG1p after), Proper Gamble (G2 before), A New Twist (mG3 before, after)
2001: Cat Chat (G2 before), Above Perfection (G3 after), Harmony Lodge (G1, mG2, mG3 after), Xtra Heat (mG3 before, mG2, mG1p after), Stormy Pick (G1 before)