My theory and feelings on Polytrack

Originally Posted by Pillow Pants

I have never missed the Saratoga meet as much as I do now.

I have never looked forward to the Churchill fall meet as much as I have now, regardless of the Breeders Cup.

Hollywood Park? Whooo if you think it's bad at Keeneland right now just wait until opening day out there.

Dude, I'm with you 100%. I have sorely missed having Keeneland to follow wholeheartedly and play.
They can't open Churchill soon enough for me.

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

So, what if Storm Cats and A.P. Indys don't like it? Do we now stand them for $5K stud fee and weed then out of the Thoroughbred chain?

Why should we have to dillute and re-tool our breeding to tailor it to a new surface? It is going to screw up the legacy and classic bloodlines of our industrys greats - wrecking tradition after tradition and screwing with our history and heritage....

I strongly disagree with you....I don't want our breed to change - the same way as I don't want 5'5" 160-pound guys excelling in football if the NFL were to hypothetically change their surface of playing field from grass or artificial turf to playing on cotton pillows, would you?

Maybe Lemon Drops Kid will be the leading sire on that crap and Storm Cat will become an after-thought...do you really want that to happen?

If anyone doesn't realize that this will have horrible impacts on the breeding industry, they are mistaken.
You crash the bloodstock market Pgard, and you will crash the whole game.
The reality is that the residual value is the only way you can win as an owner. You dilute the whole bloodstock market and crash the prices, you cansay goodbye to everyone but the Sheikhs and Coolmore. Noone else can afford to piss away money like that. Do you know how few yearlings purchased for over 100 grand ever earn themselves out BEFORE the additional expenses? Take away the hope on the back end, and you got nothing.

Originally Posted by oracle80

If anyone doesn't realize that this will have horrible impacts on the breeding industry, they are mistaken.
You crash the bloodstock market Pgard, and you will crash the whole game.
The reality is that the residual value is the only way you can win as an owner. You dilute the whole bloodstock market and crash the prices, you cansay goodbye to everyone but the Sheikhs and Coolmore. Noone else can afford to piss away money like that. Do you know how few yearlings purchased for over 100 grand ever earn themselves out BEFORE the additional expenses? Take away the hope on the back end, and you got nothing.

Im sorry but I cant forsee markets like you can. I am not MR. Wallstreet. Did dirt racing ruin turf racing?

Originally Posted by pgardn

Im sorry but I cant forsee markets like you can. I am not MR. Wallstreet. Did dirt racing ruin turf racing?

It wasn't a BUSINESS back then like it is now. If you don't realize that, there is no point in discussing it.

Originally Posted by pgardn

Im sorry but I cant forsee markets like you can. I am not MR. Wallstreet. Did dirt racing ruin turf racing?

Turf racing in the United States is comparable to the bench of a basketball team. The stars play on the dirt. Changing all of the dirt tracks to poly is like the NBA installing clay courts.

[disrespectnfool]

Originally Posted by oracle80

If anyone doesn't realize that this will have horrible impacts on the breeding industry, they are mistaken.
You crash the bloodstock market Pgard, and you will crash the whole game.
The reality is that the residual value is the only way you can win as an owner. You dilute the whole bloodstock market and crash the prices, you cansay goodbye to everyone but the Sheikhs and Coolmore. Noone else can afford to piss away money like that. Do you know how few yearlings purchased for over 100 grand ever earn themselves out BEFORE the additional expenses? Take away the hope on the back end, and you got nothing.

the "greeding" industry will kill this game before polytrack gets close.

[pba1817]

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

So, what if Storm Cats and A.P. Indys don't like it? Do we now stand them for $5K stud fee and weed then out of the Thoroughbred chain?

Why should we have to dillute and re-tool our breeding to tailor it to a new surface? It is going to screw up the legacy and classic bloodlines of our industrys greats - wrecking tradition after tradition and screwing with our history and heritage....

I strongly disagree with you....I don't want our breed to change - the same way as I don't want 5'5" 160-pound guys excelling in football if the NFL were to hypothetically change their surface of playing field from grass or artificial turf to playing on cotton pillows, would you?

Maybe Lemon Drops Kid will be the leading sire on that crap and Storm Cat will become an after-thought...do you really want that to happen?

Sorry but as a fan of horse racing and a handicapper, I am not worried about the future of the breeding lines what so ever.

Unless you have some sort of financial interest in the breeding industry, you should'nt give a rats ass about the breeding side of it.

Originally Posted by pba1817

Sorry but as a fan of horse racing and a handicapper, I am not worried about the future of the breeding lines what so ever.

Unless you have some sort of financial interest in the breeding industry, you should'nt give a rats ass about the breeding side of it.

I have an ENORMOUS financial interest in the breeding industry and I rely on my knowledge - that I've worked very hard to attain - to breed my horses. My dad invested a lot of money in this game on my confidence and now i have to go back and tell him that his advisor will just be guessing based on no feel or statistics when i choose the breeds forn his mares this year. If you owned $600,000 in horses would you want to hear that lack of faith from your advisor?

And don't knick me, I'd put my knowledge up against most when it comes to pedigrees and breeding imperfections out of horses and qualities into horses....I've talked to many bloodtsock agents who have NO clue as to what will perform over this crap....

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

I have an ENORMOUS financial interest in the breeding industry and I rely on my knowledge - that I've worked very hard to attain - to breed my horses. My dad invested a lot of money in this game on my confidence and now i have to go back and tell him that his advisor will just be guessing based on no feel or statistics when i choose the breeds forn his mares this year. If you owned $600,000 in horses would you want to hear that lack of faith from your advisor?

And don't knick me, I'd put my knowledge up against most when it comes to pedigrees and breeding imperfections out of horses and qualities into horses....I've talked to many bloodtsock agents who have NO clue as to what will perform over this crap....

Not to mention trainers who have virtually no idea either.

[pba1817]

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

I have an ENORMOUS financial interest in the breeding industry and I rely on my knowledge - that I've worked very hard to attain - to breed my horses. My dad invested a lot of money in this game on my confidence and now i have to go back and tell him that his advisor will just be guessing based on no feel or statistics when i choose the breeds forn his mares this year. If you owned $600,000 in horses would you want to hear that lack of faith from your advisor?

And don't knick me, I'd put my knowledge up against most when it comes to pedigrees and breeding imperfections out of horses and qualities into horses....I've talked to many bloodtsock agents who have NO clue as to what will perform over this crap....

I sympathize with your situation, I truly do. But in all honesty, having such financial interest in the industry, you should have been as best prepared as you could for this change when it was announced a few years ago.

I think that the better breeds still drop the fastest horses, regardless of racing surface, some breeds will rise, some will fall, but overall I do not think there will be a major change of tides in the breeding industry.

[TitanSooner]

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

So, what if Storm Cats and A.P. Indys don't like it? Do we now stand them for $5K stud fee and weed then out of the Thoroughbred chain?

Why should we have to dillute and re-tool our breeding to tailor it to a new surface? It is going to screw up the legacy and classic bloodlines of our industrys greats - wrecking tradition after tradition and screwing with our history and heritage....

I strongly disagree with you....I don't want our breed to change - the same way as I don't want 5'5" 160-pound guys excelling in football if the NFL were to hypothetically change their surface of playing field from grass or artificial turf to playing on cotton pillows, would you?

Maybe Lemon Drops Kid will be the leading sire on that crap and Storm Cat will become an after-thought...do you really want that to happen?

how do you group them together in this context?? don't certain players excel on the artificial turf more so than on real grass.. come on!!! They've ruined the NFL.

sounds silly doesn't it.

Originally Posted by TitanSooner

how do you group them together in this context?? don't certain players excel on the artificial turf than real grass.. come on!!! They've ruined the NFL.

sounds silly doesn't it.

LOL!!! Thanks for making my point Titan, and Joels as well without realizing it.
When artificial turf came about the teams(baseball and football) and league were sold on it the same EXACT way that the tracks have been sold on Poly. They were told of no maintenance costs, and convinced that it would be just as safe as grass.
Funny that almost every stadium that put in has ripped it out, and that all new stadiums built use grass. The only holdovers being domes with no retractable roofs.
If you don't see the irony of that, well.........................

I'm not completely sold on the surface being safer. The way some horses have been slipping and sliding at Keeneland it's only a matter of time before a major spill happens.

Hopefully then the silent majority will speak up.

Originally Posted by oracle80

LOL!!! Thanks for making my point Titan, and Joels as well without realizing it.
When artificial turf came about the teams(baseball and football) and league were sold on it the same EXACT way that the tracks have been sold on Poly. They were told of no maintenance costs, and convinced that it would be just as safe as grass.
Funny that almost every stadium that put in has ripped it out, and that all new stadiums built use grass. The only holdovers being domes with no retractable roofs.
If you don't see the irony of that, well.........................

Irony. Oracle you just pulled your own.
Now you just ruined your own point by bringing up injuries. Grass in football has been brought back mainly because of injuries. Oracle, you did exactly what you claimed what someone else did. Ruin your own point. The initial results do look like polytrac may be best for the safety of the animals. But I withold on this. To little data still. But it clearly is leaning one way at present.

[TitanSooner]

Originally Posted by oracle80

LOL!!! Thanks for making my point Titan, and Joels as well without realizing it.
When artificial turf came about the teams(baseball and football) and league were sold on it the same EXACT way that the tracks have been sold on Poly. They were told of no maintenance costs, and convinced that it would be just as safe as grass.
Funny that almost every stadium that put in has ripped it out, and that all new stadiums built use grass. The only holdovers being domes with no retractable roofs.
If you don't see the irony of that, well.........................

and they've now created artificial surfaces that are much closer to the real thing.. it took some time but they've found it. I'm certain that the artificial race track will evolve the same way and trainers will find methods to be more effective on it.

Again, if I do not accept the polytrack then I am going to be SOL on playing the horses out here on California which is not something I'm ready to do. Some might not want to play it, and that's their choice.

In a few years I think that everything will be just fine. Those that do not want to play will stop, those that continue to play will learn, and new blood will be brought into the game.


And God will be happy that we are treating his precious Thoroughbred much better.

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

Why should we have to dillute and re-tool our breeding to tailor it to a new surface? It is going to screw up the legacy and classic bloodlines of our industrys greats - wrecking tradition after tradition and screwing with our history and heritage....

Retool? Dirt racing was retooling. Do you like dirt racing? Lets take it all back to grass. The biggest money races started on grass? What the hell is this Dirt stuff the Euro's say...

Lord.

[TitanSooner]

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

God created horses and evolved their physiques and bio-mechanics over centuries of time to be tailored to perform in their natural environs in the wild – which are almost exclusively DIRT ranges and GRASS pastures and fields. They were NOT born to run over chopped-up rubber tires and synthetic fibers with wax-coated sand mixed in…….Oh how our sport will change because of this…oh how our sport will change……..

And sadly, I think it will change for the worse because it will change the way we breed horses…..Storm Cats and A.P. Indys – two of the top DIRT performing sires of modern day, both hailing from great families of longstanding dirt-producing superiority – could both now be replaced by commons like Lemon Drop Kid and Smart Strike (no knock on these studs, just making a point)…..our sport is at risk of failing to preserve the legacy of our most cherished and storied families…. oh, what a shame….oh, what a shame….

Everybody who doesn’t understand our game (most track execs) looks at the Polytrack as the saving force of our industry. Those people don’t have the capacity, intimate knowledge or care of the sport to look under the 'surface' and grasp an understanding of the long-term effects it will have on our game – because if they did, I think they would be rather concerned at the integrity risks we stand to lose.

What the implementation of Polytrack really is to these figures is a knee-jerk, quick-fix REACTION (not pro-action) to what they feel will solve problems in the areas of field sizes and horse health – which shouldn’t be hard to preserve on dirt with the right grounds crew. Maybe not at Turfway in the winter, but the California tracks should definitely have a way to provide a better racing surface than the ones they did. SO SHOULD KEENELAND. All they had to do is rip a page out of Churchill Downs' book – where the surface is as good as any is in the country – and they would see that in the same region of the country it IS possible to provide a good dirt track. I mean, what’s so different between Lexington and Louisville???

Ironically, the funny thing is that if Polytrack threatens the way we breed horses in the future (which I believe that it will), I think it will have a NEGATIVE affect on the sales market – the very thing that Keeneland makes all of its money on. Now, how funny would that be considering the fact Keeneland will be known as one of the leading, initial advocates of Polytrack?…….

With a City, Frankie Brothers filly that won the 2-year-old stake two weeks ago (who I bet on might I ad) and Asi Siempre in the Spinster (bet on her too although she couldn’t stand up next to Happy Ticket on the dirt)…..its all garbage…..the wrong horses are going down in history and we have just now started a trend that could seriously threaten what all of us know now as HORSE RACING.

Can you tell I love this stuff?

God didn't create me to walk on concrete and asphalt either.. but I do.

[pba1817]

Originally Posted by TitanSooner

God didn't create me to walk on concrete and asphalt either.. but I do.

Brilliant angle... who is going to argue this?

Caveat being I haven't read the other posts in this thread.
So excuse me if I am repititous, and I will catch up.

Valuable article from Andy B yesterday, discussing the handicapping adjustments necessary to play the Keeneland races on the new polytrack surface.

The old speed bias is seriously dead, now replaced by a closer trend.

Riders who hustled their mounts through quick early pace have been finishing far up the track. The early fractions are now much slower(with final 1/4s somewhat quicker) as the pinheads adjust to how the new surface is playing. Turf runners who have never had main track success before are winning or doing well on the new surface(check the Spinster result and yesterday's feature).

Many people have been quick to assume that this will also drastically change the breeding industry away from producing pedigrees emphasizing precocious runners and early pace types. This could be true, however I am not as anxious to jump on that bandwagon.
Class and talent will still be just that. I expect the biggest change to be in how trainers bring along and prepare their runners. They might not be so anxious to develop that quick speed that wins early on with 2yos, favoring an easier, slower development back towards stamina. Also the way races are run and ridden will change quickly(already) and drastically more towards a Euro rider approach. Stretch runs may be much more competitive and exciting, with the smarter jocks having a greater advantage.

Hope y'all get a chance to read the article and a few of the other message board discussions about the changes from all perspectives.

I see the game changing big-time brothers, and all of you out west had better get prepared now, since this will probably affect you the most.

Other thoughts or opinions?

Originally Posted by jackofhearts

Caveat being I haven't read the other posts in this thread.
So excuse me if I am repititous, and I will catch up.

Valuable article from Andy B yesterday, discussing the handicapping adjustments necessary to play the Keeneland races on the new polytrack surface.

The old speed bias is seriously dead, now replaced by a closer trend.

Riders who hustled their mounts through quick early pace have been finishing far up the track. The early fractions are now much slower(with final 1/4s somewhat quicker) as the pinheads adjust to how the new surface is playing. Turf runners who have never had main track success before are winning or doing well on the new surface(check the Spinster result and yesterday's feature).

Many people have been quick to assume that this will also drastically change the breeding industry away from producing pedigrees emphasizing precocious runners and early pace types. This could be true, however I am not as anxious to jump on that bandwagon.
Class and talent will still be just that. I expect the biggest change to be in how trainers bring along and prepare their runners. They might not be so anxious to develop that quick speed that wins early on with 2yos, favoring an easier, slower development back towards stamina. Also the way races are run and ridden will change quickly(already) and drastically more towards a Euro rider approach. Stretch runs may be much more competitive and exciting, with the smarter jocks having a greater advantage.

Hope y'all get a chance to read the article and a few of the other message board discussions about the changes from all perspectives.

I see the game changing big-time brothers, and all of you out west had better get prepared now, since this will probably affect you the most.

Other thoughts or opinions?

I think that Hollywood is a short meet and the effects of Poly out west won't truly be felt until the Hoolywood summer meet opens which leads into Del Mar which will have poly by then.
I also see owners out there with well bred or expensive horses who don't run a lick on it not having a hell of a lot of patience.
This will lead to owners shipping horses of said horses back East for dirt racing.
I think the biggest impact it will have out there will be that several big name trainers may open stables or increase their presence in the East so that if and when this happens, that they won't lose horses completely to other trainers in the East. They will simply tell the owner that they are gonna ship the horse to their East Coast division.
I make this a very short price to happen Jackofhearts.