Bernardini

[Betsy]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Bernardini's sire A. P. Indy has long emerged as the best dirt route sire out there. He's by Seattle Slew out of a Secretariat mare - which means two triple crown winners and no Mr. Prospector or Storm Cat.

A. P. Indy




Bernardini's dam Cara Rafaela was an extremely precocious route horse. She was a close 2nd in the BC Juvie fillies and won a strong Grade 1 as a 2yo - and her career quickly went to absolute sh!t. Though she was able to win a division of a 39K restricted stakes at Fairplex as an older horse.

CARA RAF:



Cara Rafaela's half brother was the wickedly fast So. Cal sprinter from the Mid 90's Abaginone.



Even though Bernardini's race record is similar to A. P. Indy's (Bernardini was the better race horse of the two by the way) I have my doubts his offspring tendencies will be similar.. especially with what I've seen from his first crop.

Bernardini's offspring are looking quicker and a lot better suited to sprinting than A. P. Indy's. He's only had one crop race so far - and the best horses have been To Honor and Serve, A. P. Warrior, Stay Thirsty, and Biondetti ... but you'd think he's already proven himself a great stallion.

Hopefully a lot of his good offspring don't develop like his mom did. Interesting to follow - because he could be either the next all-time great stallion - or a just a very good stallion who sires a lot of well bred flash in the pan types that look real promising and fizzle.

I'm still annoyed at the Sheikh retiring this horse before he'd had a chance to really prove himself, but yeah - he was a tremendous racehorse (though I still think Pulpit was Indy's most brilliant).

As to your last point, I suppose we can say that about any sire. This topic was brought up on another board, but lots of stallions got off to fine starts only to fizzle. I certainly have the highest hopes for Bernardini, so obviously I hope that he takes after his sire and not his dam. Indy is proving to be a very good sire of sires and even Mineshaft, who got off to a slow start as a sire, is doing well now.

I agree that Bernardini is imparting more speed to his offspring than Indy, but I'm not sure they are more suited to sprinting - it's not like he's imparting crazy speed (though I think Crossbow will end up being a sprinter/miler - he's very fast). It's just that they all seem to have tactical speed, which is certainly an advantage (though Indy hasn't done badly thus far, lol). So far this year, he's had some runners who have not run well, but he's also had some show very good promise (Crossbow, Cassini Flight, Heron Lake and Break up the Game - yes, I know the latter is still a maiden- and another maiden, a Pletcher filly named R Gypsy Gold). I guess we'll find out soon enough if his best offspring have trained on because Stay Thirsty (I know he's not well thought of here) is set to work this weekend (and his first race back will be in the Gotham), AZ Warrior will return in the Las Virgenes most likely and hopefully To Honor and Serve will make the FOY. Unfortunately we'll have to follow Biondetti (who is a particular favorite of mine) from afar. One thing Bernardini has over AP Indy is that his offspring (at least in Europ) have handled turf and synthetics.

[VOL JACK]

Originally Posted by Betsy

I'm still annoyed at the Sheikh retiring this horse before he'd had a chance to really prove himself, but yeah - he was a tremendous racehorse (though I still think Pulpit was Indy's most brilliant).

As to your last point, I suppose we can say that about any sire. This topic was brought up on another board, but lots of stallions got off to fine starts only to fizzle. I certainly have the highest hopes for Bernardini, so obviously I hope that he takes after his sire and not his dam. Indy is proving to be a very good sire of sires and even Mineshaft, who got off to a slow start as a sire, is doing well now.

I agree that Bernardini is imparting more speed to his offspring than Indy, but I'm not sure they are more suited to sprinting - it's not like he's imparting crazy speed (though I think Crossbow will end up being a sprinter/miler - he's very fast). It's just that they all seem to have tactical speed, which is certainly an advantage (though Indy hasn't done badly thus far, lol). So far this year, he's had some runners who have not run well, but he's also had some show very good promise (Crossbow, Cassini Flight, Heron Lake and Break up the Game - yes, I know the latter is still a maiden- and another maiden, a Pletcher filly named R Gypsy Gold). I guess we'll find out soon enough if his best offspring have trained on because Stay Thirsty (I know he's not well thought of here) is set to work this weekend (and his first race back will be in the Gotham), AZ Warrior will return in the Las Virgenes most likely and hopefully To Honor and Serve will make the FOY. Unfortunately we'll have to follow Biondetti (who is a particular favorite of mine) from afar. One thing Bernardini has over AP Indy is that his offspring (at least in Europ) have handled turf and synthetics.

I agree.
the tail wags the dog with the Sheiks.
They spent hundreds of millions trying to breed a colt like Bernardini.
Then they retired him as soon as possible..

[Betsy]

Originally Posted by VOL JACK

I agree.
the tail wags the dog with the Sheiks.
They spent hundreds of millions trying to breed a colt like Bernardini.
Then they retired him as soon as possible..

Yep......imagine what he could have done as a 4 year old. I guess he wanted to try and win a Derby with a homegrown stallion ASAP, but I was always ticked off that he kept Discreet Cat in training and retired this boy. To me, it was just a waste.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by VOL JACK

I agree.
the tail wags the dog with the Sheiks.
They spent hundreds of millions trying to breed a colt like Bernardini.
Then they retired him as soon as possible..

They need the millions in potential stallion fees to help support all their Camel racing exploits silly!

[johnny pinwheel]

i disagree that bernardini was better....the withers, jim dandy and travers were a joke. he won the preakness when the BIG horse broke down. in fact, the travers field was one of the worst ever. he beat blugrass cat and allowance loser dr. pleasure...real tough...then showed his true colors when invasor ate him for lunch the same way ap indy did in his classic...the jockey gold cup is his one legit race and that field was sort of "beat" too...ap indy ran against pleasant tap and strike the gold....i know the numbers probably say different but when your beating up chumps its easy to run faster.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by johnny pinwheel

ap indy ran against pleasant tap and strike the gold....i know the numbers probably say different but when your beating up chumps its easy to run faster.

I don't know what is funnier - that anyone would think "Invasor ate Bernardini for lunch in the BC Classic" or Pleasant Tap and Strike The Gold being held as great competition.

Strike The Gold - while a favorite horse of mine (and least favorite of my grandfather) - was a losing machine and became something of a laughing stock.



Pleasant Tap was a very solid horse .. but nothing that special.




I love how Bernardini's blowout wins in major 3yo races get picked apart - but A. P. Indy's 3yo races just get ignored. The hapless Benburb had his way with A. P. Indy in Canada off of the layoff in the Molson Million.

A. P. Indy's second best career win besides the BC Classic came in the Belmont Stakes in workmanlike fashion over the immortal My Memoirs



The year A. P. Indy won the BC Classic - Jolypha ..the 3yo filly from Europe was 3rd in the race.

[Betsy]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

I don't know what is funnier - that anyone would think "Invasor ate Bernardini for lunch in the BC Classic" or Pleasant Tap and Strike The Gold being held as great competition.

Strike The Gold - while a favorite horse of mine (and least favorite of my grandfather) - was a losing machine and became something of a laughing stock.



Pleasant Tap was a very solid horse .. but nothing that special.




I love how Bernardini's blowout wins in major 3yo races get picked apart - but A. P. Indy's 3yo races just get ignored. The hapless Benburb had his way with A. P. Indy in Canada off of the layoff in the Molson Million.

A. P. Indy's second best career win besides the BC Classic came in the Belmont Stakes in workmanlike fashion over the immortal My Memoirs



The year A. P. Indy won the BC Classic - Jolypha ..the 3yo filly from Europe was 3rd in the race.

I do think it's unfair that Bernardini gets knocked for finishing 2nd in the Classic. I loved Indy, but you're right - he was more workmanlike in the Belmont than anything else. Granted, he was coming off a very, very good prep in the Peter Pan.............I think 2 weeks before?

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

I don't know what is funnier - that anyone would think "Invasor ate Bernardini for lunch in the BC Classic" or Pleasant Tap and Strike The Gold being held as great competition.

Strike The Gold - while a favorite horse of mine (and least favorite of my grandfather) - was a losing machine and became something of a laughing stock.



Pleasant Tap was a very solid horse .. but nothing that special.




I love how Bernardini's blowout wins in major 3yo races get picked apart - but A. P. Indy's 3yo races just get ignored. The hapless Benburb had his way with A. P. Indy in Canada off of the layoff in the Molson Million.

A. P. Indy's second best career win besides the BC Classic came in the Belmont Stakes in workmanlike fashion over the immortal My Memoirs



The year A. P. Indy won the BC Classic - Jolypha ..the 3yo filly from Europe was 3rd in the race.

I guess that it is not possible in your world view that something went amiss for My Memoirs after the Belmont. Are you really implying that Indy would have been nearly distanced in all those subsequent races in which My Memoirs got destroyed?

I do not know why Jolypha never regained her form either, but she was clearly a top level horse, and even Frankel, years later, called her one of the best three fillies he'd ever trained.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

I guess that it is not possible in your world view that something went amiss for My Memoirs after the Belmont. Are you really implying that Indy would have been nearly distanced in all those subsequent races in which My Memoirs got destroyed?

I do not know why Jolypha never regained her form either, but she was clearly a top level horse, and even Frankel, years later, called her one of the best three fillies he'd ever trained.

Obviously something went badly amiss with My Memoirs physically after the Jim Dandy flop. Notice the two year layoff.

However - he hardly brought promising form into the Belmont Stakes. If Bernardini beat him in similar workmanlike fashion - it would be held against him a lot more.