Pioneer of the Nile misses the top 20....

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

As I said a few weeks back when I mentioned this list, how one can compare Zenyatta to horses like Busher, Twilight Tear, and Gallorette - who ran against males with some regularity - and come to the conclusion that she was a superior runner is beyond me.

That's been my point from early on.

For the record, Gallorette ran 72 times compiling a record of 21-20-13. She ran against her own sex a whopping 17 times. 17. One more time for clarity... SEVENTEEN. Versus females, 17/8-4-5 including:

Acorn Stakes (1945)
Black-Eyed Susan Stakes (1945)
Delaware Oaks (1945)
Beldame Stakes (1946)
Top Flight (1948)

She ran against males 55 times with a record of 13-16-8 against them at distances between 6f and 10f. She faced Stymie regularly. Assault. Pavot. Conniver. Among her wins:

Metropolitan Handicap (1946)
Brooklyn Handicap (1946)
Wilson Stakes (1947, 1948)
Queens County Handicap (1947)
Carter Handicap (1948)
Whitney Handicap (1948)

The notion that Zenyatta is even an equal of Gallorette is utterly preposterous.

[Clip-Clop]

Originally Posted by Kasept

That's been my point from early on.

For the record, Gallorette ran 72 times compiling a record of 21-20-13. She ran against her own sex a whopping 17 times. 17. One more time for clarity... SEVENTEEN. Versus females, 17/8-4-5 including:

Acorn Stakes (1945)
Black-Eyed Susan Stakes (1945)
Delaware Oaks (1945)
Beldame Stakes (1946)
Top Flight (1948)

She ran against males 55 times with a record of 13-16-8 against them at distances between 6f and 10f. She faced Stymie regularly. Assault. Pavot. Conniver. Among her wins:

Metropolitan Handicap (1946)
Brooklyn Handicap (1946)
Wilson Stakes (1947, 1948)
Queens County Handicap (1947)
Carter Handicap (1948)
Whitney Handicap (1948)

The notion that Zenyatta is even an equal of Gallorette is utterly preposterous.

It is awfully hard to look past all those seconds and thirds.

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by Kasept

The notion that Zenyatta is even an equal of Gallorette is utterly preposterous.

That may be so, but it is equally as preposterous, if you believe the other females belong on the list, to suggest that Zenyatta doesn't belong in the top 100 or top 125

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

That may be so, but it is equally as preposterous, if you believe the other females belong on the list, to suggest that Zenyatta doesn't belong in the top 100 or top 125

I left that open for interpretation.

Personally, as I've said a number of times, I think she would have acquitted herself famously if given the opportunity. Had she been campaigned with true historical proportion in mind, she likely would have built a far more impressive body of work with clear indications of her greatness, than the hollow slate that was foisted on her.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

That may be so, but it is equally as preposterous, if you believe the other females belong on the list, to suggest that Zenyatta doesn't belong in the top 100 or top 125

If you're talking about best overall horse - there's no female horse that belongs in the top 50 - possibly even top 100.

Festin had Zenyatta's running style .. lets pretend he was female and Shireffs was spotting him against Taptam, Lethal Heat, Brownie Points, Anbaa's Creations etc.

Festin would kill those horses. He was clearly a better deep closer than Zenyatta. Where would you put Festin on a list of greatest horses ever?

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

If you're talking about best overall horse - there's no female horse that belongs in the top 50 - possibly even top 100.

That's why I qualified my statement by stating, "if you believe the other females belong on the list." I think any list such as this probably should include females, albeit with an acknowledgement that most of the females' performances were graded "on a curve" because of their gender.

[alysheba4]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

If you're talking about best overall horse - there's no female horse that belongs in the top 50 - possibly even top 100.

Festin had Zenyatta's running style .. lets pretend he was female and Shireffs was spotting him against Taptam, Lethal Heat, Brownie Points, Anbaa's Creations etc.

Festin would kill those horses. He was clearly a better deep closer than Zenyatta. Where would you put Festin on a list of greatest horses ever?

......no, but if you think festin was a better horse....

[slotdirt]

Even if Festin wasn't a better horse than Zenyatta, it was still a pretty good pull.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Festin would have trounced Zenyatta ... Zenyatta's own sire Street Cry... also didn't come around fully till age 4 like her .. but Street Cry would have absolutely demolished Zenyatta.





STREET CRY




The difference is that Zenyatta is running against sheer equine filth of the female variety ... and Street Cry and Festin ran against excellent top older males like Left Bank and Sakhee - and In Excess, Farma Way, Unbridled, Black Tie Affair etc.

Festin needed a very fast pace - and only really got it once. He was hindered in the Black Tie Affair Classic by a slow pace.

[blackthroatedwind]

Festin would have routinely beaten Zenyatta, as DrugS said, and pretty much nobody has even heard of him.

But, Zenyatta is, apparently, the 18th best horse of all-time....and those that disagree are haters and worthy of derision.

By the way.....you may be wrong about Count Fleet. There are old-time figure makers that believe he might have been the fastest.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

If you're talking about best overall horse - there's no female horse that belongs in the top 50 - possibly even top 100.

I don't know about that one man.