Crist: The great distaffers..

[CSC]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I couldn't possibly care less what people on the internet, with generally no overview of racing history, use to compare racehorses. Personal Ensign was an East Coast based horse, owned by people intimately tied to NY racing, so the fact that she spent her injury plagued career in NY is about as surprising as the sun coming up. Since you brought her up, however, I will add that while racing in NY she did face males in one of NY's biggest stake races ( the Whitney ). No shame in staying home. However, a challenge here or there never hurts.

Be that as it may, Lady's Secret was owned by Eugene Klein, who also owned the San Diego Chargers, so unlike the Phipps family, and like the connections of your darling, he was based on the West Coast. Now, while obviously if someone wanted a championship campaign, ya know....wanted to earn it and not declare it, they needed to run in NY ( especially in the days of racing before the internet when a campaign didn't rest only on a horse's laurels from one day ), he still ran close to half of her races at his home base. He found it possible to do a little ( OK, in her case, a lot ) of both.

You really need to take a good look at Lady's Secret's pps some time. Frankly, you should look at the pps of ALL of those on Steve Crist's list. It might give you some very needed perspective. It isn't that any sane person would ever even entertain the notion that Zenyatta is not a spectacular horse. It's just that some of us have a better sense of history than others.

But the Lady's Secret's are very few and far between, there are not many trainer's that would campaign horses today the way Lukas once did. Campaigns are now watered down for many top horses, injuried or not look how sparingly Ghostzapper ran in his final year of racing or Medaglia Doro for that matter. It was perhaps bad circumstance we did not see her ship the last 2 years other than the Apple Blossom with The BC being situated at SA two years in a row, regardless she is expected to run in the BC Classic this year and being that it is in Ky she will ship with maybe a race in NY before that. If she is successful, she would more than earned the right to be placed with the other great fillies/mares in this game. She is still writing her destiny in the game, you can't really judge her until the book is complete

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by CSC

But the Lady's Secret's are very few and far between, there are not many trainer's that would campaign horses today the way Lukas once did. Campaigns are now watered down for many top horses, injuried or not look how sparingly Ghostzapper ran in his final year of racing or Medaglia Doro for that matter. It was perhaps bad circumstance we did not see her ship the last 2 years other than the Apple Blossom with The BC being situated at SA two years in a row, regardless she is expected to run in the BC Classic this year and being that it is in Ky she will ship with maybe a race in NY before that. If she is successful, she would more than earned the right to be placed with the other great fillies/mares in this game. She is still writing her destiny in the game, you can't really judge her until the book is complete

Let me get this straight.....

Zenyatta is an all-time great as long as she doesn't have to be compared to horses from all times?

At least now I get it. Maybe it is the Z that puts her over the top.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Let me get this straight.....

Zenyatta is an all-time great as long as she doesn't have to be compared to horses from all times?

At least now I get it. Maybe it is the Z that puts her over the top.

Come on now, do you compare Hank Aaron to Barry Bonds exactly the same, times change and evaluating athletes change. The fact is you really can't compare the two.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by CSC

Come on now, do you compare Hank Aaron to Barry Bonds exactly the same, times change and evaluating athletes change.

Exactly?

Sorry, but when someone says " Zenyatta is the best mare of all time " I take that as a comparison to horses from all times....just as I would assume the same comparison if someone said Barry Bonds was the best of all time.

Who wouldn't?

But, I guess those rules are different for Zenyatta.

However, herein lies part of the problem. There seems a need for Zenyatta's fans to declare her as the best horse ever, or something of the like, which I suppose eminates from their unquenchable envy of Rachel Alexandra for her HOY title, as opposed to just ( and when I say " just " I am rolling my eyes ) settling for some version of " great. " Declaring she is something she is not only diminishes her.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Exactly?

Sorry, but when someone says " Zenyatta is the best mare of all time " I take that as a comparison to horses from all times....just as I would assume the same comparison if someone said Barry Bonds was the best of all time.

Who wouldn't?

But, I guess those rules are different for Zenyatta.

However, herein lies part of the problem. There seems a need for Zenyatta's fans to declare her as the best horse ever, or something of the like, which I suppose eminates from their unquenchable envy of Rachel Alexandra for her HOY title, as opposed to just ( and when I say " just " I am rolling my eyes ) settling for some version of " great. " Declaring she is something she is not only diminishes her.

seriously, who has claimed she is the greatest of all time on this board, other than maybe Smooth Operator?

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

seriously, who has claimed she is the greatest of all time on this board, other than maybe Smooth Operator?

You're kidding....right?

I never said I was specifically talking about this board.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

You're kidding....right?

I never said I was specifically talking about this board.

I just think your promoting, without proper context, this idea that the majority of Zenyatta fans are delusional about her ability and place in history, its just not accurate.

[Gaining Ground]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

seriously, who has claimed she is the greatest of all time on this board, other than maybe Smooth Operator?

does steve davidowitz count because he said it and is technically a member of the board?

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by Gaining Ground

does steve davidowitz count because he said it and is technically a member of the board?

Oh, hush up.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by Gaining Ground

does steve davidowitz count because he said it and is technically a member of the board?

yes he did, but like I mentioned in my response there seems to be this growing majority coming out of no where when I read many posts, its just not accurate.

Zenyatta is very very very good. I have no idea if she is better than Lady's Secret, or Susans Girl, or any other great mare from the past. She runs on a different surface 80% of the time.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Exactly?

Sorry, but when someone says " Zenyatta is the best mare of all time " I take that as a comparison to horses from all times....just as I would assume the same comparison if someone said Barry Bonds was the best of all time.

Who wouldn't?

But, I guess those rules are different for Zenyatta.

However, herein lies part of the problem. There seems a need for Zenyatta's fans to declare her as the best horse ever, or something of the like, which I suppose eminates from their unquenchable envy of Rachel Alexandra for her HOY title, as opposed to just ( and when I say " just " I am rolling my eyes ) settling for some version of " great. " Declaring she is something she is not only diminishes her.

I would think all of the 3, maybe 4 Zenyatta fans on this board never would say she is the best racemare of all time at this point, plus I don't think anyone other than SO really cares about HOY in 09 or 10, but that's his schtick and considering the over the top admiration of the one filly here for the past year, it is refreshing to some or atleast to myself it is.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by CSC

Come on now, do you compare Hank Aaron to Barry Bonds exactly the same, times change and evaluating athletes change. The fact is you really can't compare the two.

Uh why couldn't you compare Hank Aaron and Barry Bonds?

[slotdirt]

It would be more difficult to compare Barry Bonds to, say, Frank "Home Run" Baker than it would Hank Aaron.

It's called a "modern" era, which would be why the all-time wins record isn't held by Kinscem or some other pre-1900 horse.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Uh why couldn't you compare Hank Aaron and Barry Bonds?

It's very tough to say exactly how he would have done today, players are better conditioned, workout more, use performance enhancers...ect...a clean Hank Aaron would be more in the vein of a Ken Griffey Jr. rather than a Mcguire, Sosa, or Bonds.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by CSC

It's very tough to say exactly how he would have done today, players are better conditioned, workout more, use performance enhancers...ect...a clean Hank Aaron would be more in the vein of a Ken Griffey Jr. rather than a Mcguire, Sosa, or Bonds.

They play under the same rules, on the same size fields, playing the same amount of games. They are easily compared especially when you factor their production against the players of the same years, i.e. how they performed against what the league average was for any particular year or set of years. Are players better conditioned or do they workout more? Sure but so do the pitchers that they face.

At least baseball players don't get to choose what pitchers they want to face and aren't afraid of crossing mountains. (except the Red Sox according to Gales)

[CSC]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

They play under the same rules, on the same size fields, playing the same amount of games. They are easily compared especially when you factor their production against the players of the same years, i.e. how they performed against what the league average was for any particular year or set of years. Are players better conditioned or do they workout more? Sure but so do the pitchers that they face.

At least baseball players don't get to choose what pitchers they want to face and aren't afraid of crossing mountains. (except the Red Sox according to Gales)

The game is just different Cannon, it keeps evolving, think about it Ruth was once a pitcher in addition to being an everyday player. You could never do that in today's game.

[zippyneedsawin]

Originally Posted by CSC

It's very tough to say exactly how he would have done today, players are better conditioned, workout more, use performance enhancers...ect...a clean Hank Aaron would be more in the vein of a Ken Griffey Jr. rather than a Mcguire, Sosa, or Bonds.

ESPN's Tim Kurkjin (sp?) relayed a discussion he recently had with Frank Robinson where he asked the HOF how many home runs he thought he could hit in a season against today's players.. Robinson replied 30. When Kurkjin laughed.. robinson scoffed and said, 'oh yeah? 35!"

[CSC]

Originally Posted by zippyneedsawin

ESPN's Tim Kurkjin (sp?) relayed a discussion he recently had with Frank Robinson where he asked the HOF how many home runs he thought he could hit in a season against today's players.. Robinson replied 30. When Kurkjin laughed.. robinson scoffed and said, 'oh yeah? 35!"

Bucky Dent could hit 20 homeruns today on the right diet.