Crist: The great distaffers..

[CSC]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Personal Ensign was a Grade 1 winner in just her second career start as a 2yo. She then suffered a major fracture preparing for the BC Juvenile Fillies (at Santa Anita) in a hind ankle that required several screws to stabilize.

Off for nearly a year, she returned at 3, and with just 3 starts under her belt and never having run further than a mile, she won the Grade 1 Beldame versus her elders at a mile and a quarter.

Her perfect 4yo season was highlighted by a start against males in the Whitney and the BC Distaff. Both of those races were on off-tracks. Both resulted in victories, not scratches.

While the 13 for 13 may not stand up to Zenyatta's 17 for 17, there is a big difference IMO between running at 2 and 3 and not starting until nearly 4 years of age. You'll say that the competition at 2 and 3 is easier, but I would say that it's much more difficult for a top class horse to maintain superiority (whether or unbeaten or not) in its division as it and its peers are developing (some improving, some regressing) over time.

Though in basic terms, there race records are similar, here's the essential difference between the two:

Personal Ensign's race record is one of progression, essentially each successive start tougher than the last. Considering the injury, an element of heroism prevails.

Zenyatta's race record is one of ennui, same old song and dance. A cloud of evasion hangs over it.

When it is all said and done, we can only analyse their race records. For each argument for Personal Ensign racing at 2 and 3 you make, I can counter with Zenyatta racing is still racing at age 6 where no BC Classic has been won by a 6 yr old nevermind a female. The only thing I will say about Zenyatta right now is most are comparing her to Personal Ensign's record with her career incomplete, she most likely has 3 races to run to define her place in history, one has to be fair and evaluate her after her career is over not before it.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by CSC

When it is all said and done, we can only analyse their race records. For each argument for Personal Ensign racing at 2 and 3 you make, I can counter with Zenyatta racing is still racing at age 6 where no BC Classic has been won by a 6 yr old nevermind a female. The only thing I will say about Zenyatta right now is most are comparing her to Personal Ensign's record with her career incomplete, she most likely has 3 races to run to define her place in history, one has to be fair and evaluate her after her career is over not before it.

The racing as a 5yo and 6yo argument is weak if the horse in question has not raced signficantly at 2 and 3. Part of the reason why older horses wear down and lose form in advanced seasons is because they also raced as 2yos and 3yos. There are certain opportunities and qualities in a horse that are displayed in the juvenile and sophomore years that can't be shown later on. Whereas a horses 5yo and 6yo campaigns can be mirror images of each other (witness Zenyatta), nothing is ever similar between a horses 2yo or 3yo or 4yo year.

Regardless, your point about waiting for Zenyatta to end her career is well taken.

Just to be safe, we should probably post your preference directly to the guy who was baiting everyone into comparing Zenyatta to Personal Ensign in the first place.

I think he's on a unicycle somewhere pedaling backwards.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

The racing as a 5yo and 6yo argument is weak if the horse in question has not raced signficantly at 2 and 3. Part of the reason why older horses wear down and lose form in advanced seasons is because they also raced as 2yos and 3yos. There are certain opportunities and qualities in a horse that are displayed in the juvenile and sophomore years that can't be shown later on. Whereas a horses 5yo and 6yo campaigns can be mirror images of each other (witness Zenyatta), nothing is ever similar between a horses 2yo or 3yo or 4yo year.

Regardless, your point about waiting for Zenyatta to end her career is well taken.

Just to be safe, we should probably post your preference directly to the guy who was baiting everyone into comparing Zenyatta to Personal Ensign in the first place.

I think he's on a unicycle somewhere pedaling backwards.

I can't argue opinion, and I don't understand your last sentence, why would someone backpedal if Zenyatta wins the BC Classic and perhaps a race in NY say that race is the Beldame? Unless they are already biased against her. What are you talking about? Is that still not good enough for you?

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by CSC

I can't argue opinion, and I don't understand your last sentence, why would someone backpedal if Zenyatta wins the BC Classic and perhaps a race in NY say that race is the Beldame? Unless they are already biased against her. What are you talking about? Is that still not good enough for you?

You backpedaled because you were the one who tried to goad people into comparing her with Personal Ensign.

A couple of us obliged you and responded.

Your reply:

The only thing I will say about Zenyatta right now is most are comparing her to Personal Ensign's record with her career incomplete

Look out.

Objects in the mirror are closer than they appear.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

You backpedaled because you were the one who tried to goad people into comparing her with Personal Ensign.

A couple of us obliged you and responded.

Your reply:

The only thing I will say about Zenyatta right now is most are comparing her to Personal Ensign's record with her career incomplete

Look out.

Objects in the mirror are closer than they appear.

Who backpedaled? you make it sound that if she goes on to win the BC and whatever races in between now and then, that it would be outrageous to compare her to Personal Ensign. I understand this whole thing of comparing one era to another is subjective. But why can't others have an opinion that she belongs with the alltime greats? Is it really that outrageous? Others who have infinitely more experience in the game than myself and probably even yourself believe so. Does that make them wrong?

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by CSC

Who backpedaled? you make it sound that if she goes on to win the BC and whatever races in between now and then, that it would be outrageous to compare her to Personal Ensign. I understand this whole thing of comparing one era to another is subjective. But why can't others have an opinion that she belongs with the alltime greats? Is it really that outrageous? Others who have infinitely more experience in the game than myself and probably even yourself believe so. Does that make them wrong?

I think I made myself clear in what way you backpedaled. You wanted to compare Zenyatta and Personal Ensign earlier today ("it was a ploy") and now you don't.

To justify your backpedal you say that Zenyatta has yet to finish her career and therefore we should wait to compare her with Personal Ensign.

3 times since that post you have posted "what if" scenarios of her winning the 2010 BC Classic.

If you were as consistent as Zenyatta is we wouldn't need to keep going over this.

As for the "sanctity of the opinion" BS, if I thought your opinion should be erased I'd just become a moderator.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

I think I made myself clear in what way you backpedaled. You wanted to compare Zenyatta and Personal Ensign earlier today ("it was a ploy") and now you don't.

To justify your backpedal you say that Zenyatta has yet to finish her career and therefore we should wait to compare her with Personal Ensign.

3 times since that post you have posted "what if" scenarios of her winning the 2010 BC Classic.

If you were as consistent as Zenyatta is we wouldn't need to keep going over this.

As for the "sanctity of the opinion" BS, if I thought your opinion should be erased I'd just become a moderator.

In reality, I posted according to the Crist blog that she had raced only once out of N.Y, go back and look. That started the dialogue for obvious reasons since one of Zenyatta's criticisms is she doesn't ship often enough, all the rest of the stuff came from your imaginary mind. I also pointed out wouldn't it be fairer to judge Zenyatta as a whole after this year, a point you agreed with me. If that is a backpedal in your mind, I'm sorry I can't help you.