Crist: The great distaffers..

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

I don't want to get into a debate about comparing horses from different eras, its basically useless and futile.

I do find it odd though that you say that about the Phipps when the very same can be said about the owners of Zenyatta. Though she showed up in the sports biggest races (Breeders Cup, racings championship day) so its not like she skipped them because they were in NY.

Heck I remember one trainer in New York and had what would have been highly thought of horses for both the distaff and the sprint and said he had no interest in racing in California..............and this was when it was on dirt. No one even batted and eye brow in that case, go figure. Different standards is what is frustrating.

If you took my entire comment you couldn't have made your argument.

Interesting.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

If you took my entire comment you couldn't have made your argument.

Interesting.

Because Klein let Lukas do anything he wanted, its not even the same situation. Yes Lukas ran his horses more aggressively than any other trainer in history. Why not make an apples to apples comparison. I think the Phipps is as you so eloquently stated, the only time they ship west of the Miss. is when there is a Breeders Cup, maybe an odd grass race.

[slotdirt]

I'm curious though, who did Personal Ensign duck in the F/M division by not going West? Was there some great distaffer out there she would have otherwise missed by not running the schedule that she ran?

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

I'm curious though, who did Personal Ensign duck in the F/M division by not going West? Was there some great distaffer out there she would have otherwise missed by not running the schedule that she ran?

Just to be clear, for clarity sakes

I am not criticizing her schedule, she ran in new york and then the BC, makes sense to me if I owned her.

[slotdirt]

The thing is, there were no synthetics back then, so there wasn't the need to go east/west vice/versa to prove one's mettle. I can understand folks wanting Personal Ensign to run in the West, but when the horse was undefeated, beat males in the Whitney, and had taken on all comers in her division on dirt, I guess I just don't get the comparison to Zenyatta's schedule.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

The thing is, there were no synthetics back then, so there wasn't the need to go east/west vice/versa to prove one's mettle. I can understand folks wanting Personal Ensign to run in the West, but when the horse was undefeated, beat males in the Whitney, and had taken on all comers in her division on dirt, I guess I just don't get the comparison to Zenyatta's schedule.

You don't get the comparison because you aren't trying to grasp at straws in order to defend a hopeless position.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

The thing is, there were no synthetics back then, so there wasn't the need to go east/west vice/versa to prove one's mettle. I can understand folks wanting Personal Ensign to run in the West, but when the horse was undefeated, beat males in the Whitney, and had taken on all comers in her division on dirt, I guess I just don't get the comparison to Zenyatta's schedule.

So again, people are upset about the surface, which I get. I don't by the argument that she can't run on dirt, she would be better on dirt, certainly faster in general (there are no fast synthetic horses according to the numbers, just an occasional fast race). Just maybe not undefeated.

Zenyatta after the Classic will have run three times on dirt, I think it will be pretty obvious she has a lot of ability on multiple surfaces and will provide enough to judge.

[Thunder Gulch]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

So again, people are upset about the surface, which I get. I don't by the argument that she can't run on dirt, she would be better on dirt, certainly faster in general (there are no fast synthetic horses according to the numbers, just an occasional fast race). Just maybe not undefeated.

Zenyatta after the Classic will have run three times on dirt, I think it will be pretty obvious she has a lot of ability on multiple surfaces and will provide enough to judge.

To me that's the whole argument about her placing in history. There is no history to compare with because synthetics are so new to the US racing scene. The synthetics played into her liking and her style, and distorted the view of what took place in the BC Classic, but I believe Zen is a great horse who can run on dirt. I don't at all believe she would be undefeated if she ran 14 times on dirt against good fields, and to be considered the greatest in the US you need to have made your mark there.

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

So again, people are upset about the surface, which I get. I don't by the argument that she can't run on dirt, she would be better on dirt, certainly faster in general (there are no fast synthetic horses according to the numbers, just an occasional fast race). Just maybe not undefeated.

Zenyatta after the Classic will have run three times on dirt, I think it will be pretty obvious she has a lot of ability on multiple surfaces and will provide enough to judge.

The dirt/synthetic issue is obviously important for some in this discussion (not me). Also, I don't believe that it is fair to penalize Zenyatta for the fact that the Breeders' Cup was held in SoCal the last two years. And recognizing that equine athletes can have off days, her 17-for-17 record is a remarkable achievement.

That all being said, at this point in time, the issue for me isn't about shipping her out of town. While I'd love to see Zenyatta come to Saratoga for a race like the Ruffian or Whitney, I doubt that will happen. What I don't get is that her connections said that they were going to do things differently in 2010, and yet they haven't done anything in 2010 that they already hadn't done in either 2008 or 2009. The question is why, when Zenyatta has already beaten the boys at 10F, if she is not going to leave the West Coast, is she not contesting a race like the Hollywood Gold Cup or the Pacific Classic? Their mare having won the Breeders' Cup Classic and then having contended that she should have been crowned HOY on at least one occassion, are we really to believe that there is a male horse on the West Coast against whom the Mosses are afraid of racing?

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

I'm curious though, who did Personal Ensign duck in the F/M division by not going West? Was there some great distaffer out there she would have otherwise missed by not running the schedule that she ran?

The Gary Jones filly By Land By Sea was the early season star in CA. She won stakes at Santa Anita, Gulfstream (the Rampart), Churchill, Oaklawn (the Apple Blossom), and Hollywood (the Milady). Something must have happened to her though because I don't think she ran the last half of the year.

The CA distaff division at the time had a lot of horses flip-flopping between the main track and turf course, so it wasn't particularly strong.

As a barometer Clabber Girl ran on both coasts that year, winning what is now the Clement Hirsch, and lost to Personal Ensign a couple of times during the year.