Zenyatta assigned 129 pounds for Vanity

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by miraja2

I'm no huge fan of Zenyatta, but I really wish people would stop mentioning her in the same sentence with that New Mexico rat. Yeah, it wasn't a very good BCC field, and yeah it was on a synthetic surface, and yeah the "top-tier" Cali fillies and mares she has pounded most of her career aren't great, but come on. She has at least been running in G1 races where any filly and mare in the country could show up to run against her, and twice they have ventured out of the state in search of actual competition. Sure we'd all like to see them do that with her more often, but they deserve at least some credit for doing it on those occasions.
Comparing her to that record-holding slug who plugged along her entire career against bottom-tier talent - even if it is just to make a point about beating up on the same competition - really just seems unfair.

The reasoning behind her linkage with the New Mexico "rat" is posts like a few in this thread that proclaim her greatness and historic achievement by using the streak as evidence. Obviously they are two different brands of horse but the fact is that if the streak is going to be held up as her standard of greatness, then the "rat" is going to be involved in the conversation. I think your post is telling in two places where you mention her running in grade 1's and her two ventures out of the state as being in search of actual competition. That is my entire point. She is an exceptional horse who hasn't really done anything exceptional except maintain an undefeated streak. While that IS an accomplishment in itself, let's not confuse that with them searching out the best competition. They have in virtually every case chosen the path of least resistance. They are chosing to roll the dice by making the BC Classic at CD the entire season. It really becomes a make or break race for her and she really doesn't deserve that. The fact that RA and Zenyatta have never met or really probably never will meet is proof being a "sportsman" ain't what it used to be. John Nerud they aren't.

[Port Conway Lane]

There is a difference in logistics when comparing east coast racing to west coast. Major stables in the east will move from Belmont in the fall to Gulfstream in the winter to Kentucky in the spring, where the big money races are.

In California there isn't a track within 2,000 miles other than Oaklawn that provides the purse money that California does.

Shirreffs isn't the only trainer staying at home where purse money is as lucrative as anywhere else. There are countless stables in the east who have graded synthetic winners staying in the east because it makes no sense to ship to California when there are races at home that offer the same money. The only difference is that Shirreffs has the highest profile horse in training.

I realize he's ducking males in California and elsewhere and I understand why.

He holds the cards. If there is a filly or mare good enough to beat Zenyatta then come out to California and prove it. She continues to defeat mediocre competition because 75% of the best synthetic fillies are staying home back east. Shirreffs is making no more of an exception in regards to shipping Zenyatta than he has done with any of his horses.

The bottom line is that Zenyatta is owned and trained in California. Is it fair to the horse and fans that they are choosing the easy road ? Of course not. If Zenyatta was trained by (fill in the blank) back east she would be running the majority of her races in New York. Would anyone expect an east coast trainer to seek out the best horses in California ?

[PeteMugg]

Originally Posted by Port Conway Lane

There is a difference in logistics when comparing east coast racing to west coast. Major stables in the east will move from Belmont in the fall to Gulfstream in the winter to Kentucky in the spring, where the big money races are.

In California there isn't a track within 2,000 miles other than Oaklawn that provides the purse money that California does.

Shirreffs isn't the only trainer staying at home where purse money is as lucrative as anywhere else. There are countless stables in the east who have graded synthetic winners staying in the east because it makes no sense to ship to California when there are races at home that offer the same money. The only difference is that Shirreffs has the highest profile horse in training.

I realize he's ducking males in California and elsewhere and I understand why.

He holds the cards. If there is a filly or mare good enough to beat Zenyatta then come out to California and prove it. She continues to defeat mediocre competition because 75% of the best synthetic fillies are staying home back east. Shirreffs is making no more of an exception in regards to shipping Zenyatta than he has done with any of his horses.

The bottom line is that Zenyatta is owned and trained in California. Is it fair to the horse and fans that they are choosing the easy road ? Of course not. If Zenyatta was trained by (fill in the blank) back east she would be running the majority of her races in New York. Would anyone expect an east coast trainer to seek out the best horses in California ?

I tend to agree. And it's still early in the season if you're planning to make it to the Breeder's Cup. I think I'll hold judgement on Z's campaign until it's complete but I'm sure hoping she'll see real dirt or face the boys at least once before the Classic.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Port Conway Lane

There is a difference in logistics when comparing east coast racing to west coast. Major stables in the east will move from Belmont in the fall to Gulfstream in the winter to Kentucky in the spring, where the big money races are.

In California there isn't a track within 2,000 miles other than Oaklawn that provides the purse money that California does.

Shirreffs isn't the only trainer staying at home where purse money is as lucrative as anywhere else. There are countless stables in the east who have graded synthetic winners staying in the east because it makes no sense to ship to California when there are races at home that offer the same money. The only difference is that Shirreffs has the highest profile horse in training.

I realize he's ducking males in California and elsewhere and I understand why.

He holds the cards. If there is a filly or mare good enough to beat Zenyatta then come out to California and prove it. She continues to defeat mediocre competition because 75% of the best synthetic fillies are staying home back east. Shirreffs is making no more of an exception in regards to shipping Zenyatta than he has done with any of his horses.

The bottom line is that Zenyatta is owned and trained in California. Is it fair to the horse and fans that they are choosing the easy road ? Of course not. If Zenyatta was trained by (fill in the blank) back east she would be running the majority of her races in New York. Would anyone expect an east coast trainer to seek out the best horses in California ?

C'mon stop using the West coast based excuse. This isn't 1975. Horses fly all over the world to compete and where she is based in the Winter has no bearing on what they are doing. I understand as well as anyone that there are always other factors that aren't known to the public when deciding where and when to run horses. But that being said they are working on their third campaign with virtually no variance between them. This isn't a claiming horse we are talking about. And many east coast trainers ship horses west to run in stakes, even conservative types like Clement.

It is their horse. They can do anything they want with her. But what they are doing is a disservice to both the horse and the game. Imagine in 2010 a horse that is supposedly considered one of the all time greats that never competed at Saratoga, or Belmont or Monmouth, or Churchill Downs or Keeneland? That ran on synthetics her whole career with two exceptions (same track, same race)? If they are going to duck RA then you would think they would try something really out of the box like a turf race such as the Arlington Million? You know like Secretariat did a few times? or Dr Fager? Hell even Mr. Sportsman tried the turf with Curlin once. The same old races, the same old competition. Why can't she ship in to run in the Fleur de Lis? Or at least threaten to and stir up ol Jess? Because they care more about some meaningless winning streak and keeping that intact as some kind of medal of valor. Or because she isn't doing that great as some have alluded to.

But I hate to tell them that she ain't leading on the judges cards 1/2 way through the fight. Dancing around shouldn't win them points (yet with the state of eclipse voters, most of whom shouldn't be allowed to vote for town dogcatcher let alone year end awards, who knows). Quality Road is and his lead may be insurmountable enough by November that he may skip the BC as the leader in the clubhouse.

[Port Conway Lane]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

C'mon stop using the West coast based excuse. This isn't 1975. Horses fly all over the world to compete and where she is based in the Winter has no bearing on what they are doing. I understand as well as anyone that there are always other factors that aren't known to the public when deciding where and when to run horses. But that being said they are working on their third campaign with virtually no variance between them. This isn't a claiming horse we are talking about. And many east coast trainers ship horses west to run in stakes, even conservative types like Clement.

It is their horse. They can do anything they want with her. But what they are doing is a disservice to both the horse and the game. Imagine in 2010 a horse that is supposedly considered one of the all time greats that never competed at Saratoga, or Belmont or Monmouth, or Churchill Downs or Keeneland? That ran on synthetics her whole career with two exceptions (same track, same race)? If they are going to duck RA then you would think they would try something really out of the box like a turf race such as the Arlington Million? You know like Secretariat did a few times? or Dr Fager? Hell even Mr. Sportsman tried the turf with Curlin once. The same old races, the same old competition. Why can't she ship in to run in the Fleur de Lis? Or at least threaten to and stir up ol Jess? Because they care more about some meaningless winning streak and keeping that intact as some kind of medal of valor. Or because she isn't doing that great as some have alluded to.

But I hate to tell them that she ain't leading on the judges cards 1/2 way through the fight. Dancing around shouldn't win them points (yet with the state of eclipse voters, most of whom shouldn't be allowed to vote for town dogcatcher let alone year end awards, who knows). Quality Road is and his lead may be insurmountable enough by November that he may skip the BC as the leader in the clubhouse.

I don't disagree with any of what you said above. I wasn't trying to make excuses for their choice of schedule,I was only pointing out the reality of the situation. She is their horse and they have no obligation to anyone to run her against males or to ship her anywhere they feel would not be in the best interest of their long term goal.

If she stays healthy and continues the easy pickins schedule she will give it one shot at Churchill Downs in November,on dirt, and against males. If she does not win HOY shame on them.

[Thunder Gulch]

Originally Posted by Port Conway Lane

I don't disagree with any of what you said above. I wasn't trying to make excuses for their choice of schedule,I was only pointing out the reality of the situation. She is their horse and they have no obligation to anyone to run her against males or to ship her anywhere they feel would not be in the best interest of their long term goal.

If she stays healthy and continues the easy pickins schedule she will give it one shot at Churchill Downs in November,on dirt, and against males. If she does not win HOY shame on them.

But a lot of people will still freak out if she continues the current path and doesn't win. Much like last year, Horse of the Year isn't decided in a day. What happens if Quality Road continues to set track records all over and goes 6 for 6 before sitting out the Breeders Cup? I'll give it to you that if Zenyatta won the Classic at Churchill on dirt, it would probably trump anything QR could do short of setting 3 more track records, but which would really have a better year.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Thunder Gulch

But a lot of people will still freak out if she continues the current path and doesn't win. Much like last year, Horse of the Year isn't decided in a day. What happens if Quality Road continues to set track records all over and goes 6 for 6 before sitting out the Breeders Cup? I'll give it to you that if Zenyatta won the Classic at Churchill on dirt, it would probably trump anything QR could do short of setting 3 more track records, but which would really have a better year.

Quality Road's races should count more than Zenyatta's because they are bigger and more important races. It used to be that a filly had to have an extraordinary year in a year where no male horse stood out (like last year). Zenyatta's campaign the last two years should only have held merit if there simply wasn't anyone else to give it to (like the year Kotashann, a turf horse, won). The award voters got it right last year because the breeders Cup shouldn't be the end all. RA was clearly ahead on the ballots leading into the BC and while she may have been a victimized in the final count by emotion and a little "out of sight, out of mind" mentality. But this year there is a clear cut leader in the older horse category who is following a traditional path who should be the HoY if he wins out regardless of the BC.

[Port Conway Lane]

Originally Posted by Thunder Gulch

But a lot of people will still freak out if she continues the current path and doesn't win. Much like last year, Horse of the Year isn't decided in a day. What happens if Quality Road continues to set track records all over and goes 6 for 6 before sitting out the Breeders Cup? I'll give it to you that if Zenyatta won the Classic at Churchill on dirt, it would probably trump anything QR could do short of setting 3 more track records, but which would really have a better year.

I was swept away in the moment at the BC when she won and as time passed to look at it objectively I thought "Which would be more unfair, denying RA or Zenyatta?" I felt the right choice was made.

I feel we all are getting ahead of ourselves just a bit. Ultimately what everyone wants to see (I would hope) is a race with Zenyatta,RA,QR and Rail Trip all at the top of their game. (At least in my fantasy world)

If that means the connections of Zenyatta decide that in the best interest of their goal of winning the BCC she should take the most comfortable Grade 1 F&M races in their own backyard then so be it. If she wins the BCC and is denied HOY there will be plenty of people freaking out with Moss at the top of the list. Personally it's no skin off my back.

This weekend's races are just awesome. Topped off by a Mare who makes every race she runs in dramatic.

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

The reasoning behind her linkage with the New Mexico "rat" is posts like a few in this thread that proclaim her greatness and historic achievement by using the streak as evidence. Obviously they are two different brands of horse but the fact is that if the streak is going to be held up as her standard of greatness, then the "rat" is going to be involved in the conversation.

Exactly. The streak is meaningless to me if she's just beating the same horses at the same tracks over and over. Hell, I'd prefer a horse like Perfect Drift to her. He lost a lot, but he danced every dance and consistently ran well and that means more to me than some stupid streak against soft competition.

[Travis Stone]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Exactly. The streak is meaningless to me if she's just beating the same horses at the same tracks over and over. Hell, I'd prefer a horse like Perfect Drift to her. He lost a lot, but he danced every dance and consistently ran well and that means more to me than some stupid streak against soft competition.

I'd love to have both in my stable.

[NTamm1215]

Chuck hit the nail on the head and certainly summed up the way I feel about Zenyatta and this recent announcement. As has been brought up numerous times here before, it isn't necessarily staying in CA that is the biggest problem with their plan, it's staying in CA and facing females.

NT

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by Travis Stone

I'd love to have both in my stable.

Again with this? As Coach said, I'd love to own the Yankees too, it doesn't mean I have to be a fan no matter what they do.

As an aside, PD earned $4,714,212 with the immortal Murray Johnson as his trainer. That alone should qualify him for the HOF.

[Travis Stone]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Again with this? As Coach said, I'd love to own the Yankees too, it doesn't mean I have to be a fan no matter what they do.

As an aside, PD earned $4,714,212 with the immortal Murray Johnson as his trainer. That alone should qualify him for the HOF.

I was definitely being tongue in cheek... nothing makes me want to pull my hair out more as when people say, "Oh, that's a horse I wouldn't turn down for my stable."

In all seriousness, Perfect Drift was a lot of fun to watch. His Whitney stretch-drive with Roses In May was awesome.

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by Travis Stone

I was definitely being tongue in cheek... nothing makes me want to pull my hair out more as when people say, "Oh, that's a horse I wouldn't turn down for my stable."

In all seriousness, Perfect Drift was a lot of fun to watch. His Whitney stretch-drive with Roses In May was awesome.

Not if you bet on him.

NT

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

The reasoning behind her linkage with the New Mexico "rat" is posts like a few in this thread that proclaim her greatness and historic achievement by using the streak as evidence. Obviously they are two different brands of horse but the fact is that if the streak is going to be held up as her standard of greatness, then the "rat" is going to be involved in the conversation. I think your post is telling in two places where you mention her running in grade 1's and her two ventures out of the state as being in search of actual competition. That is my entire point. She is an exceptional horse who hasn't really done anything exceptional except maintain an undefeated streak. While that IS an accomplishment in itself, let's not confuse that with them searching out the best competition. They have in virtually every case chosen the path of least resistance. They are chosing to roll the dice by making the BC Classic at CD the entire season. It really becomes a make or break race for her and she really doesn't deserve that. The fact that RA and Zenyatta have never met or really probably never will meet is proof being a "sportsman" ain't what it used to be. John Nerud they aren't.

I agree with most of what you say here, and the absurd praise heaped on the horse by her legion of fans/worshipers grates on my nerves as well. Basically I'm saying that I think her level of competition IS pretty darn low, and so I'm not sure it really needs to be exaggerated in any way by her detractors. I just think that her streak is so infinitely more impressive than freakin' Pepper's Pride's that the comparison is a bit foolish. While the races Zenyatta has been running in have certainly lacked top-quality competition, they haven't been restricted to only crappy competition the way Pepper's Pride were.
I'm not trying to argue that the connections deserve a lot of praise for running the horse in the Apple Blossom twice, I am merely saying that I do think they deserve some amount of credit for it. In what was supposed to be the biggest race of the year this year, they showed up while the other guys didn't. Does that make them great "sportsmen?" No. But it seems like some on here argue as if those two trips to Oaklawn never happened in a rush to denigrate her level of competition. Again, I don't see why that is necessary. Most of the time the connections certainly have played it safe, but they did go to Oaklawn twice to take on Ginger Punch and Rachel Alexandra, and at least in those two instances, they weren't playing it safe. I certainly understand the urge to tear the mare down given how annoying most of Zenyatta's fans are around here, but I guess I am still trying to enjoy her career despite her fans' idiocy and the softness of her competition.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by miraja2

I agree with most of what you say here, and the absurd praise heaped on the horse by her legion of fans/worshipers grates on my nerves as well. Basically I'm saying that I think her level of competition IS pretty darn low, and so I'm not sure it really needs to be exaggerated in any way by her detractors. I just think that her streak is so infinitely more impressive than freakin' Pepper's Pride's that the comparison is a bit foolish. While the races Zenyatta has been running in have certainly lacked top-quality competition, they haven't been restricted to only crappy competition the way Pepper's Pride were.
I'm not trying to argue that the connections deserve a lot of praise for running the horse in the Apple Blossom twice, I am merely saying that I do think they deserve some amount of credit for it. In what was supposed to be the biggest race of the year this year, they showed up while the other guys didn't. Does that make them great "sportsmen?" No. But it seems like some on here argue as if those two trips to Oaklawn never happened in a rush to denigrate her level of competition. I certainly understand the urge to do that given how annoying most of Zenyatta's fans are around here, but I guess I am still trying to enjoy her career despite her fans' idiocy and the softness of her competition.

You realize that if Zenyatta had got beat a nose at Del mar last year everything would probably be so much different?

I can't get over the fact that we have these two great mares with connections that don't seem to care for each other and yet it seems as though we will never see them meet up. The game has a lot bigger issues than these horses choice of races but it is just a shame that this cant happen. Like Stasberg it might actually be a hyped event that lives up to its billing

But no we have to hear about fear of flying over mountains and absurd fitness levels...

[Scav]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

You realize that if Zenyatta had got beat a nose at Del mar last year everything would probably be so much different?

I can't get over the fact that we have these two great mares with connections that don't seem to care for each other and yet it seems as though we will never see them meet up. The game has a lot bigger issues than these horses choice of races but it is just a shame that this cant happen. Like Stasberg it might actually be a hyped event that lives up to its billing

But no we have to hear about fear of flying over mountains and absurd fitness levels...

who is afraid to fly over mountains?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Scav

who is afraid to fly over mountains?

J Sheriffs

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

J Sheriffs

Jess Jackson, would not take them on last year, or this year for that matter.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

Jess Jackson, would not take them on last year, or this year for that matter.

Please.

They are both equally lame.