Lawyer Ron Goes to Pletcher..

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by oracle80

Honu,
First of all congrats on another job well done. Perhaps if people realized that its the work of exercise riders like yourself, who follow instructions from the trainer in regards to the morning programs, that they would know that a jockey can't just make a rank horse relax.
Jockeys weigh about 115 pounds, horses weigh at least 1000 pounds. Doesn't matter what the jocks skill level is if the horse is rank, the horse is always gonna win.
Its the trainer and his crew whose work in the mornings give you the product in the afternoons. I just can't blame McKee.
It was indeed time for a change. And I still don't think this was anything personal.

I don't know how the selection of exercise riders works but it seems to me if I'm not an elite jockey and have a top horse that is having some issues that I might show up in the morning to try and work things out before I lose that mount. Call me crazy for having common sense but it doesn't seem reasonable to me to give McKee a pass for the horse's issues if he was too lazy to show up in the morning to work with him.

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

I don't know how the selection of exercise riders works but it seems to me if I'm not an elite jockey and have a top horse that is having some issues that I might show up in the morning to try and work things out before I lose that mount. Call me crazy for having common sense but it doesn't seem reasonable to me to give McKee a pass for the horse's issues if he was too lazy to show up in the morning to work with him.

You don't get it. Its not just the works, its the gallops and two minute licks, etc.
Jocks just don't do that, they don't gallop every morning and furthermore its the trainers call as to what the horse will do. Its not just how its done, its whats done.
People are creatures of habit, they tend to use the same methods over and over again. In Holthus's case his methods are certainly top notch because each and every year he has very good horses who run very well, the guys obviously a very good trainer, I don't think thats even remotely debatable.
But not every trainer fits every horse, just like not every coach fits every team in football. Tom Coughling of the Giants is obviously a very good coach if you take a look at what hes accomplished in his career. But the Giants and he have never developed a good rapport and hes trying to force them to play a style that doesn't fit the strengths and weaknesses that the Giants have. he also refuses to change his methods. Hes a good coach, but now priven to be the wrong coach for those particular guys.
It can work like that with trainers as well, even with the best trainers. Their methods don't always work the best with every horse. The horse is rank and after that many starts its become obvious that Holthus couldn't overcome that. So, the next guy gets a chance to. Perhaps Pletcher will fail to take that edge off him as well and he will continue to run off with the jock, but I would say that an attempt had to be made.
Noone anywhere is gonna say that Holthus isnt a very good and respected trainer, because thats exactly what he is.

[Seattleallstar]

Originally Posted by oracle80

You don't get it. Its not just the works, its the gallops and two minute licks, etc.
Jocks just don't do that, they don't gallop every morning and furthermore its the trainers call as to what the horse will do. Its not just how its done, its whats done.
People are creatures of habit, they tend to use the same methods over and over again. In Holthus's case his methods are certainly top notch because each and every year he has very good horses who run very well, the guys obviously a very good trainer, I don't think thats even remotely debatable.
But not every trainer fits every horse, just like not every coach fits every team in football. Tom Coughling of the Giants is obviously a very good coach if you take a look at what hes accomplished in his career. But the Giants and he have never developed a good rapport and hes trying to force them to play a style that doesn't fit the strengths and weaknesses that the Giants have. he also refuses to change his methods. Hes a good coach, but now priven to be the wrong coach for those particular guys.
It can work like that with trainers as well, even with the best trainers. Their methods don't always work the best with every horse. The horse is rank and after that many starts its become obvious that Holthus couldn't overcome that. So, the next guy gets a chance to. Perhaps Pletcher will fail to take that edge off him as well and he will continue to run off with the jock, but I would say that an attempt had to be made.
Noone anywhere is gonna say that Holthus isnt a very good and respected trainer, because thats exactly what he is.

then why was he transferred, the horse would of won if Leparoux or Russell Baze were up

Originally Posted by Seattleallstar

then why was he transferred, the horse would of won if Leparoux or Russell Baze were up

He was transferred because the elitist ******* new owners overpaid and want to recoup some of their cash while he's still running. Unfortunately for them LR isn't going to make much $$$ with Pletcher if they insist on running him with the best.

Originally Posted by Pillow Pants

He was transferred because the elitist ******* new owners overpaid and want to recoup some of their cash while he's still running. Unfortunately for them LR isn't going to make much $$$ with Pletcher if they insist on running him with the best.

I wonder how much of a ****ing elitist he was when everyone got all their money and commissions from the guy when he bought the horse?
Get real.
And Seattle it really would help if you ever once went to a racetrack in the morning, even once in your life, and saw how training takes place. Leparoux or baze? What exactly does that mean? They aren't even in the elite class of jocks, and it wouldnt matter if they were.
The problem with knowitall kids who have never even seen horses train in the morning is that they think they are cars, and the jockey just steps on the gas or hits the brakes.
Heres a newsflash, they aren't. What they are is huge animals who aren't overall very bright. The only way to teach a horse anything is by repitition. They don't just pick things up that easily(most of them). WHy do you think that some are still bad gate actors even after a year of racing?
Please spare me the jockey hero worship bs, its completely erroneous to think that a jockey can just change in the afternoon what a horse learns in the mornings because he wants to. The fact that the horse weighs 1000 pounds and has a mind of his own sorta gets in the way of that.
Why not ask Honu how hard it is to get one of these horses whose speed crazy to learn how to relax? Idiots who worshiop jockeys think gee, why not just take a hold of him and ask him to run late!!! DUH!!!! Gee, Seattle, I suppose noone ever thought of that huh? Dope. If it were that easy, every horse would be a perfect ride.
The problem with a rank horse is that while you are grabbing them, they are struggling with all their might to try and run and STILL using all the energy they would be using if they were allowed to run, but even WORSE, if you are grabbing them while they are trying so hard to run off with you instead of letting them run, when you turn for home you have a tired horse who is 5 lengths behind instead of 5 lengths in front.
It takes a lot of work in the mornings to get one to efficiently change his style effectively. Some just chill out a bit and become easier to rate as they get older and bit more relaxed.

Originally Posted by oracle80

I wonder how much of a ****ing elitist he was when everyone got all their money and commissions from the guy when he bought the horse?
Get real.

How in the hell does that not make them elitist *******s? Wtf was your point? Do you even know?

PLETCHER PLETCHER HE'S ORACLE'S MAN!! IF HOLTHUS CAN'T DO IT, PLETCHER CAN!!

The rich get richer and the poor get poorer....not that Holthus is poor


This is a regular theme in this industry....

Originally Posted by Pillow Pants

How in the hell does that not make them elitist *******s? Wtf was your point? Do you even know?

PLETCHER PLETCHER HE'S ORACLE'S MAN!! IF HOLTHUS CAN'T DO IT, PLETCHER CAN!!

Ok Pillow, heres my point. I'm willing to bet that Holthus made as much off the sale(if he was given the standard commission) as he will off teh rest of his stable this year!!!
I doubt he has much of a grudge against the guy.

[Seattleallstar]

Originally Posted by oracle80

I wonder how much of a ****ing elitist he was when everyone got all their money and commissions from the guy when he bought the horse?
Get real.
And Seattle it really would help if you ever once went to a racetrack in the morning, even once in your life, and saw how training takes place. Leparoux or baze? What exactly does that mean? They aren't even in the elite class of jocks, and it wouldnt matter if they were.
The problem with knowitall kids who have never even seen horses train in the morning is that they think they are cars, and the jockey just steps on the gas or hits the brakes.
Heres a newsflash, they aren't. What they are is huge animals who aren't overall very bright. The only way to teach a horse anything is by repitition. They don't just pick things up that easily(most of them). WHy do you think that some are still bad gate actors even after a year of racing?
Please spare me the jockey hero worship bs, its completely erroneous to think that a jockey can just change in the afternoon what a horse learns in the mornings because he wants to. The fact that the horse weighs 1000 pounds and has a mind of his own sorta gets in the way of that.
Why not ask Honu how hard it is to get one of these horses whose speed crazy to learn how to relax? Idiots who worshiop jockeys think gee, why not just take a hold of him and ask him to run late!!! DUH!!!! Gee, Seattle, I suppose noone ever thought of that huh? Dope. If it were that easy, every horse would be a perfect ride.
The problem with a rank horse is that while you are grabbing them, they are struggling with all their might to try and run and STILL using all the energy they would be using if they were allowed to run, but even WORSE, if you are grabbing them while they are trying so hard to run off with you instead of letting them run, when you turn for home you have a tired horse who is 5 lengths behind instead of 5 lengths in front.
It takes a lot of work in the mornings to get one to efficiently change his style effectively. Some just chill out a bit and become easier to rate as they get older and bit more relaxed.

ive been to the racetrack in the morning for some panckaes and some Marlyand action, and to see cheap claimers run around the track for some jogs

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

I don't know how the selection of exercise riders works but it seems to me if I'm not an elite jockey and have a top horse that is having some issues that I might show up in the morning to try and work things out before I lose that mount. Call me crazy for having common sense but it doesn't seem reasonable to me to give McKee a pass for the horse's issues if he was too lazy to show up in the morning to work with him.

McKee has worked the horse a hundred times. The horse gallops strong, works strong. John McKee is small even by Jockey standards. For everyone out there that thinks that it is easy to get a horse to relax in the mornings I certainly welcome your ideas. BTW I don't recall any problem horses that Pletcher has guided back to normalcy. Is he a horse whisperer too?

Funny thing about Pletchers assistants that are always being praised here is that at least 2 of them are failed trainers. Now they are geniuses too? It is all about the horses and he has more good horses under one shedrow than anyone in the history of American racing.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

McKee has worked the horse a hundred times. The horse gallops strong, works strong. John McKee is small even by Jockey standards. For everyone out there that thinks that it is easy to get a horse to relax in the mornings I certainly welcome your ideas. BTW I don't recall any problem horses that Pletcher has guided back to normalcy. Is he a horse whisperer too?

Funny thing about Pletchers assistants that are always being praised here is that at least 2 of them are failed trainers. Now they are geniuses too? It is all about the horses and he has more good horses under one shedrow than anyone in the history of American racing.

I figured he had but Oracle was making it out that McKee only rode the horse on raceday so isn't responsible for what goes on in the morning which is what my post was based on.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

I figured he had but Oracle was making it out that McKee only rode the horse on raceday so isn't responsible for what goes on in the morning which is what my post was based on.

Actually McKee was not the gretest choice of jockey for this horse but thats a moot point. Holthus rides him first call and is loyal to a fault. McKEE did work with the horse which obviously has not helped in relation to his being rank.
As for Holthus getting paid a lot of money on the commission he should be getting paid. The man has had the horse since he was brought out of a field and was very successful in racing him. Successful enough to get some dummies to pay 6 mill for him. But the truth of it is that Bob is getting up there in age and really doesn't care that much about the money. It's hard for a guy who made this horse from the ground floor to lose him in the manner that he did. I mean if you work at something for 50 years and finally got the best horse that you ever had, won a ton of races with him and to lost him to a corporate outfit where he will be stall number #17, how would you feel. Probably as bad as Holthus does.
I should point out that Bob is a friend and therefore I am a bit biased however I should point out the classy manner in which he has handled the whole affair.

[Honu]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

I figured he had but Oracle was making it out that McKee only rode the horse on raceday so isn't responsible for what goes on in the morning which is what my post was based on.

Having a jockey come and work a horse out in the morning is way diffirent than putting a 150 lb. gallop boy on him with a set of draw reins. Jockeys get paid to push not pull there is a very big diffirence, with a horse that is as rank as he seemed to be last out , I dont think there is much John McKee is going to do about it by working him once a week.
The foundation is layed in the mornings with the trainer and the gallop rider teaching the horse to relax , I have no idea what kind of training regimine the horse has had but from over 20 years of riding horses and the last 8 being for a Hall Of Fame trainer , I can tell you that the jockey isnt going to be the one getting the horse to relax by working him once a week, it would be the trainer and the gallop boy or girls job to do that.

Originally Posted by Honu

Having a jockey come and work a horse out in the morning is way diffirent than putting a 150 lb. gallop boy on him with a set of draw reins. Jockeys get paid to push not pull there is a very big diffirence, with a horse that is as rank as he seemed to be last out , I dont think there is much John McKee is going to do about it by working him once a week.
The foundation is layed in the mornings with the trainer and the gallop rider teaching the horse to relax , I have no idea what kind of training regimine the horse has had but from over 20 years of riding horses and the last 8 being for a Hall Of Fame trainer , I can tell you that the jockey isnt going to be the one getting the horse to relax by working him once a week, it would be the trainer and the gallop boy or girls job to do that.

I basically said the same thing.
Its not Mckee's fault by the way, his occupation says "jockey". Hes not a trainer.
The training is done in the morning by hard working people and exercise riders who mostly get no credit so that a few guys can become wealthy in two minutes of work based on hours and hours of hard work by the staff in the morning.

I know how successful Todd Pletcher is, but he is a 'suit'. He was not even present at Wait a While's triumphant return to California Saturday. I'll take Nick Zito any day; he loves his horses.

[Nostradamus]

Originally Posted by Bold Reasoning

I know how successful Todd Pletcher is, but he is a 'suit'. He was not even present at Wait a While's triumphant return to California Saturday. I'll take Nick Zito any day; he loves his horses.

What kind of stupid statement is that? I am not a Pletcher fan but I am sure he loves his horses. Zito is good, was great, but he is no Pletcher. Zito can't even win a grade 1. Pletcher seems to win them every week. Pletcher is the best american trainer by far. He shouldn't be compared with the all-time greats yet, but he probably will be when his career is over.

As for not going to CA, guys like Frankel and Baffert win grade 1's all the time with their assistants saddling their horses.

Pletcher is probably the best I have ever seen when it comes to placing his horses.