Zenyatta v. Rail Trip??

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Merlinsky

My blood sugar is a low so I've gone a little nuts and decided that those of us head over heels for both mares need a nickname. How about "RAZen"s? You know, like the shriveled up fruity snack? Much better than Brangelina. Yeah I'm a dork. You're welcome. Now if you'll excuse me, I need to go eat something...I'll leave you with my pre-typed babble.



Yeah at the rate they're going, neither one has achieved your typical HOY accomplishments. I know they think Zenyatta is God's gift to horse racing (she kind of is--not my point), but could they just play a tape of her winning races on synethetic in CA against the females, emerging victorious right at the end, and let the horse herself hang out in the pasture? She doesn't even need to be there, we could just hit replay. I got my hopes high from the trip to Oaklawn, I guess. Rachel's lack of pizazz despite putting up decent numbers/races for any other horse doesn't perk things up either. I'm in a funk--c'mon Super Saver. I love Preakness time because you sneeze post-Derby and you're right there at another TC race. Nice and exciting.

Right now, I think they're keeping that record in mind. Again, I don't blame them, it just doesn't do me any favors. Rail Trip's not the highest mountain. I know that remark about weights is probably a loaded comment meant to discourage giving her too much, otherwise they go elsewhere. To get Z in the Vanity, they're gonna give her less than she warrants. Whatever you think about handicap races, if you take a 17 hand undefeated phenom beating up on the same quality of field and it's her own gender, there's no reason to give her less than 130. It's ridiculous.

I think the record is their goal right now. Can't say I blame them at all for that. As for weights, sure they're going to try their best to keep them low-but by doing that as well as their over all handling, they've got no one to blame but themselves for the lack of respect they feel she is getting. Thing is, I think people respect the horse but not the connections. Many just know that she can do more, that she possibly could really excel-but they just won't test her.

[Merlinsky]

Originally Posted by Danzig

I think the record is their goal right now. Can't say I blame them at all for that. As for weights, sure they're going to try their best to keep them low-but by doing that as well as their over all handling, they've got no one to blame but themselves for the lack of respect they feel she is getting. Thing is, I think people respect the horse but not the connections. Many just know that she can do more, that she possibly could really excel-but they just won't test her.

I'm not sure that they don't respect the Mosses or the Shirreffs. I mean of the connections out there, I think people would like there to be more of their character in the sport. It's not all about the dollar and using horses as a commodity. It's just that their decisions are irksome to me right now. I understand them, I just don't like them.

If Zenyatta had won 2009 HOY, the odds of her being back this year plummet. What we're getting is horsemanship + pride + this conservative protectionism. That doesn't result in a truly glorious campaign because nothing's really on the line. It bores me. Sorry. (Not her exactly, the repetitiveness and ease of competition I mean) I can put an old race of hers on a loop and get the same effect. It's not like I'm getting to see her live, and most of America doesn't get to see her on tv. I'm happy for the folks in CA and at Oaklawn, but what good does it do anybody else? I guess they figure if they play their cards right she gets HOY, the N.A. earnings record, the undefeated streak record, and maybe beats RA for icing on the cake. Don't blame them, but it's not as much fun for me.

[Rupert Pupkin]

I think that Moss/Shirreffs had three goals for this year. I think their first goal was to beat RA. I think their second goal was to win the BC Classic again. I think their 3rd goal was to win HOY. I think those were their three big goals.

They tried to face RA but things didn't work out. At this point, I think their goals are the BC Classic and winning HOY.

I don't think that they think they have anything to prove. At this point, they will probably just look for the path of least resistance to the BC Classic. If they win the BC Classic, I think she is HOY regardless of how easy her schedule is leading up to the race.

As I said, I don't think they feel that they have anything to prove and even if there was something to prove, it would be proven in this year's BC Classic at Churchill. Nobody will be able to knock the horse if she wins the BC Classic again this year.

[Merlinsky]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I think that Moss/Shirreffs had three goals for this year. I think their first goal was to beat RA. I think their second goal was to win the BC Classic again. I think their 3rd goal was to win HOY. I think those were their three big goals.

They tried to face RA but things didn't work out. At this point, I think their goals are the BC Classic and winning HOY.

I don't think that they think they have anything to prove. At this point, they will probably just look for the path of least resistance to the BC Classic. If they win the BC Classic, I think she is HOY regardless of how easy her schedule is leading up to the race.

As I said, I don't think they feel that they have anything to prove and even if there was something to prove, it would be proven in this year's BC Classic at Churchill. Nobody will be able to knock the horse if she wins the BC Classic again this year.

Considering how difficult it is to do back to back, she'll definitely get a ton of credit in terms of her overall legend, but Tiznow did it and his 2nd didn't get him HOY because the rest of the campaign didn't bear him out in comparison to Point Given's year. PG didn't even have to show up for the BCC to get it. I don't know why everybody acts like not going ought to DQ you or something--it's but one factor to consider. We need to see what everybody else does. Some 3yos could pull what Tiznow did his 3yo season and show up later. We're already missing some recovering from Derby prep injuries or just now coming along. I've said it before, Zenyatta's magic, but I'm just not a fan of conceding a season to one horse before it's happened. I hope she's covered up with challengers by the end of this. It's better for racing. If she is and still kicks some tail, bravo for her.

I'd just love to see her at Belmont or Saratoga. Can someone explain to them that Zenyatta doesn't understand the words "ladies and gentlemen, if you'll look out the window of the cabin, you'll notice that we are currently crossing over the Rocky Mountains" ?

[declansharbor]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I think that Moss/Shirreffs had three goals for this year. I think their first goal was to beat RA. I think their second goal was to win the BC Classic again. I think their 3rd goal was to win HOY. I think those were their three big goals.

They tried to face RA but things didn't work out. At this point, I think their goals are the BC Classic and winning HOY.

I don't think that they think they have anything to prove. At this point, they will probably just look for the path of least resistance to the BC Classic. If they win the BC Classic, I think she is HOY regardless of how easy her schedule is leading up to the race.

As I said, I don't think they feel that they have anything to prove and even if there was something to prove, it would be proven in this year's BC Classic at Churchill. Nobody will be able to knock the horse if she wins the BC Classic again this year.

We both know that the haters will hate, no matter what. I'm sure some will cite the cupcake competition, race dynamics, etc. if she somehow re-claims the BC Classic title. Nature of the beast.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by declansharbor

We both know that the haters will hate, no matter what. I'm sure some will cite the cupcake competition, race dynamics, etc. if she somehow re-claims the BC Classic title. Nature of the beast.

Just because people have realistic reservations about Zenyatta doesn't make them " haters. "

Frankly, if she were to win this year's BC Classic, especially over Quality Road, it would make her shockingly cautious 2010 campaign even more disappointing. Even if one has reservations, who would deny how great it would be to see her strutting her stuff against some of the best competition she can find ( much like some other horse, whose name escapes me, did last year ) throughout the year? Even if these horses aren't all-time greats, taking on the best available talent would go a long ways to silencing her critics, and causing, perhaps, some well deserved excitement.

[declansharbor]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Just because people have realistic reservations about Zenyatta doesn't make them " haters. "

Frankly, if she were to win this year's BC Classic, especially over Quality Road, it would make her shockingly cautious 2010 campaign even more disappointing. Even if one has reservations, who would deny how great it would be to see her strutting her stuff against some of the best competition she can find ( much like some other horse, whose name escapes me, did last year ) throughout the year? Even if these horses aren't all-time greats, taking on the best available talent would go a long ways to silencing her critics, and causing, perhaps, some well deserved excitement.

If Quality Road had his head on straight that day, and Z blows his doors off like she did the rest of the competition, would you have a different take on her? I'm not being combative in my questioning, just curious if you'd feel the same way towards her if QR didnt scratch from the race and ran his usual good one only to lose.

I, for one, didn't think she'd crack the exacta in last years BC race. We (no, im not in BBB's camp ) bet against her that day hand over fist, and was still THRILLED with the end result. I went from being a fan of the horse, (one that was on the fence in the Z/RA debate) to a supporter that clearly has his fandom in the corner of Zenyatta.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by declansharbor

If Quality Road had his head on straight that day, and Z blows his doors off like she did the rest of the competition, would you have a different take on her? I'm not being combative in my questioning, just curious if you'd feel the same way towards her if QR didnt scratch from the race and ran his usual good one only to lose.

I, for one, didn't think she'd crack the exacta in last years BC race. We (no, im not in BBB's camp ) bet against her that day hand over fist, and was still THRILLED with the end result. I went from being a fan of the horse, (one that was on the fence in the Z/RA debate) to a supporter that clearly has his fandom in the corner of Zenyatta.

Beating horses on a surface they don't relish doesn't prove a heck of a lot to me. Since her supporters universally say Zenyatta is better on dirt than synth, I'll judge her by how she performs against the best available talent on their preferred surface.

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Frankly, if she were to win this year's BC Classic, especially over Quality Road, it would make her shockingly cautious 2010 campaign even more disappointing. Even if one has reservations, who would deny how great it would be to see her strutting her stuff against some of the best competition she can find ( much like some other horse, whose name escapes me, did last year ) throughout the year? Even if these horses aren't all-time greats, taking on the best available talent would go a long ways to silencing her critics, and causing, perhaps, some well deserved excitement.

Taking RA out of the equation (which always seems to become a lightning rod situation), we need only look to the recent examples of horses like Ouija Board and Goldikova to see how a champion mare can be campaigned - and perhaps more importantly how there need not be shame in losing. Their campaigns against Grade I males didn't prevent them from turning in championship performances on Breeders' Cup Day, even though their connections did far more shipping and campaigned their horses as if they were champions. If Shirreffs/Moss continue to campaign Zenyatta as they suggest, they have no one to blame but themselves if their mare doesn't receive the accolades that they apparently think she deserves.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

Taking RA out of the equation (which always seems to become a lightning rod situation), we need only look to the recent examples of horses like Ouija Board and Goldikova to see how a champion mare can be campaigned - and perhaps more importantly how there need not be shame in losing. Their campaigns against Grade I males didn't prevent them from turning in championship performances on Breeders' Cup Day, even though their connections did far more shipping and campaigned their horses as if they were champions. If Shirreffs/Moss continue to campaign Zenyatta as they suggest, they have no one to blame but themselves if their mare doesn't receive the accolades that they apparently think she deserves.

Fear of losing has no place on the road to success.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Merlinsky

I'm not sure that they don't respect the Mosses or the Shirreffs. I mean of the connections out there, I think people would like there to be more of their character in the sport. It's not all about the dollar and using horses as a commodity. It's just that their decisions are irksome to me right now. I understand them, I just don't like them.

If Zenyatta had won 2009 HOY, the odds of her being back this year plummet. What we're getting is horsemanship + pride + this conservative protectionism. That doesn't result in a truly glorious campaign because nothing's really on the line. It bores me. Sorry. (Not her exactly, the repetitiveness and ease of competition I mean) I can put an old race of hers on a loop and get the same effect. It's not like I'm getting to see her live, and most of America doesn't get to see her on tv. I'm happy for the folks in CA and at Oaklawn, but what good does it do anybody else? I guess they figure if they play their cards right she gets HOY, the N.A. earnings record, the undefeated streak record, and maybe beats RA for icing on the cake. Don't blame them, but it's not as much fun for me.

let me say, it's not respect for them-but respect for the campaign they've chosen for their stable star. i think practically everyone feels there is a lot more to zenyatta, and that perhaps she's getting cheated a bit by not taking on all comers. she's been in one unrestricted race her entire career. they wish for her to be considered an all-time great; it would help their cause immensely if they raced her as such.