Rachel Alexandra a go for La Troienne

[Smooth Operator]

Originally Posted by the_fat_man

I'm thinkin' that if she fails here, the DRF/BEYER contingent will be booking weekend spots at the Brooklyn Bridge (for a mass jump). They need her to win more than anyone else.

Hell, if she can't take this thing, everyone who voted for her should jump off the nearest high bridge.


Would pretty much be that Favorite Trick debacle all over again…

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by Smooth Operator

Hell, if she can't take this thing, everyone who voted for her should jump off the nearest high bridge.


Would pretty much be that Favorite Trick debacle all over again…

i cant believe I left you off my list of stupid opinions. How could I forget #1?????

[CSC]

Originally Posted by Smooth Operator

Hell, if she can't take this thing, everyone who voted for her should jump off the nearest high bridge.


Would pretty much be that Favorite Trick debacle all over again…

She's a good horse but hardly the horse the majority of this pro Rach board believes she is, you and I know this, a few here know this and I suspect the rest will come to realize this if and when Jess comes out of his shell and meets Zenyatta.

[the_fat_man]

Originally Posted by CSC

She's a good horse but hardly the horse the majority of this pro Rach board believes she is, you and I know this, a few here know this and I suspect the rest will come to realize this if and when Jess comes out of his shell and meets Zenyatta.

I find it very interesting that all these POLY horses are starting to run on dirt, and, in a good number of cases, are crushing their dirt counterparts. At one time, by the old Beyer system, these were all SLOW horses. Now, they're all faster, with the AD HOC tweaking of the numbers. Of course, the other explanation is that they're all DIRT horses that have been forced to run on POLY, which masks their true ability. Right.

Now, a good number of these runners are out of the Sadler barn. Sadler has gone from being the king of the stretchouts (one sprint is enough to get a horse fit to win a route) to being the king of the POLY to DIRT arena.

What's equally interesting is that you don't find many dirt horses moving to POLY and doing much of anything. (Someone correct me if I've missed something here.) Clearly, RA (and QR) would've been CRUSHED had they run in the BC. We understand RA's connections' apprehension.

Eventually, we will get to the point where horses able to run on multiple surfaces will be considered superior to those limited to a single surface. Now, for the most part, horses that handle POLY also handle the turf; and, as mentioned, more and more are handling the dirt. To this point, dirt runners have not shown the ability to run on either of the other surfaces -- at least not to the level exhibited by the other side.

The end result will be a complete collapse of the present racing 'paradigm'. Beyers will be of limited use, on dirt, and FAST, as utilized by Beyerites, will really not matter to anyone but the followers. Moreover, the equally ridiculous notion that dirt horses are superior to those running on other surfaces will just go away.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by the_fat_man

I find it very interesting that all these POLY horses are starting to run on dirt, and, in a good number of cases, are crushing their dirt counterparts. At one time, by the old Beyer system, these were all SLOW horses. Now, they're all faster, with the AD HOC tweaking of the numbers. Of course, the other explanation is that they're all DIRT horses that have been forced to run on POLY, which masks their true ability. Right.

Now, a good number of these runners are out of the Sadler barn. Sadler has gone from being the king of the stretchouts (one sprint is enough to get a horse fit to win a route) to being the king of the POLY to DIRT arena.

What's equally interesting is that you don't find many dirt horses moving to POLY and doing much of anything. (Someone correct me if I've missed something here.) Clearly, RA (and QR) would've been CRUSHED had they run in the BC. We understand RA's connections' apprehension.

Eventually, we will get to the point where horses able to run on multiple surfaces will be considered superior to those limited to a single surface. Now, for the most part, horses that handle POLY also handle the turf; and, as mentioned, more and more are handling the dirt. To this point, dirt runners have not shown the ability to run on either of the other surfaces -- at least not to the level exhibited by the other side.

The end result will be a complete collapse of the present racing 'paradigm'. Beyers will be of limited use, on dirt, and FAST, as utilized by Beyerites, will really not matter to anyone but the followers. Moreover, the equally ridiculous notion that dirt horses are superior to those running on other surfaces will just go away.

I agree with the premise of this post, one thing I'll add is there is a certain bias against synthetic horses as being less superior to dirt horses. This is especially evident when they fail on dirt or run a number that isn't as good as a dirt beyer; however when a dirt horse fails on synthetics it is a perfect excuse to blame the surface. I would deem any horse that is able to win despite what surface they run on should be considered superior, it's common sense but we still have some thinking that winning on 1 surface, dirt is the measure of great horses, when winning on both truly is.

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by CSC

She's a good horse but hardly the horse the majority of this pro Rach board believes she is.

I can say the same damn thing about Zenyatta and her supporters. Enough with the whining. Again, if Zenyatta had ventured out of her playpen more than two times in three years, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

[the_fat_man]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

I can say the same damn thing about Zenyatta and her supporters. Enough with the whining. Again, if Zenyatta had ventured out of her playpen more than two times in three years, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Lost in all of this, and this is KEY, is that Zenyatta showed up for the AB and RA didn't. She also showed up for the BC and RA didn't. How much more simple can it get than that? How long will the silliness continue from the ONLINE RA camp?

So, Z is supposed to go out of her way to meet a horse that didn't show up when she had the chance, TWICE? Anybody with a brain buy into this?

When one's system fails, the result is MUCHO gibberish.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

I can say the same damn thing about Zenyatta and her supporters. Enough with the whining. Again, if Zenyatta had ventured out of her playpen more than two times in three years, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

If Zenyatta stays in California the rest of the year I will be the 1st to criticize her, however she did ship to the Apple Blossom to face Rach, on dirt. So you know what you said is not completely true, we will see a different campaign this year due to them pointing for the BC; however it is also fair to point out Rachel never shipped out west either, nor is she planning to, so I don't understand why she gets a free pass when the other doesn't.

[TouchOfGrey]

Is the draw for the La Troienne today?

[philcski]

Originally Posted by TouchOfGrey

Is the draw for the La Troienne today?

Yes

[Bigsmc]

Originally Posted by philcski

Yes

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by the_fat_man

Lost in all of this, and this is KEY, is that Zenyatta showed up for the AB and RA didn't. She also showed up for the BC and RA didn't. How much more simple can it get than that? How long will the silliness continue from the ONLINE RA camp?

So, Z is supposed to go out of her way to meet a horse that didn't show up when she had the chance, TWICE? Anybody with a brain buy into this?

When one's system fails, the result is MUCHO gibberish.

Read below about the BC. Your own logic about dirt and synthetic horses should tell you why they didn't want to run her in the BC, especially after what happened with Curlin the year before. As for the Apple Blossom, I'm disappointed that they didn't run her, but if the horse isn't fit, the horse isn't fit. Unlike the Mosses, Jackson doesn't have a history of treating his supposed superhorse with kid gloves, so he gets the benefit of the doubt. Again, you're deflecting instead of explaining why the immortal Z continues to run against allowance horses in her playpen nine times out of ten.

Originally Posted by CSC

If Zenyatta stays in California the rest of the year I will be the 1st to criticize her, however she did ship to the Apple Blossom to face Rach, on dirt. So you know what you said is not completely true, we will see a different campaign this year due to them pointing for the BC; however it is also fair to point out Rachel never shipped out west either, nor is she planning to, so I don't understand why she gets a free pass when the other doesn't.

Because, as your fellow Zentologist points out, dirt horses have a tougher time transferring their form to synthetic than vice versa. It's not understandable that Jackson didn't want to have an ultimate showdown between the two on a surface that Zenyatta was far more likely to excel on?

[CSC]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Because, as your fellow Zentologist points out, dirt horses have a tougher time transferring their form to synthetic than vice versa. It's not understandable that Jackson didn't want to have an ultimate showdown between the two on a surface that Zenyatta was far more likely to excel on?

There's not much confidence from the Rachel camp when you already concede she will lose to Zenyatta out west even without attempting a race, what does that say? Then we come to the Apple Blossom and again they are not confident of facing Zenyatta on their preferred surface. Again that doesn't speak volumes from a faction that believes their horse is superior. Again, I state I believe Rachel is a good horse, a very good horse infact. Great? Not at this point. Better than Zenyatta not even close at this stage, Jess knows this and that is why we now have a last minute entry of Rach in the "Careless Jeweless" La Troienne. But Jess and SA have always been great at cherry picking races haven't they?

[philcski]

Originally Posted by CSC

There's not much confidence from the Rachel camp when you already concede she will lose to Zenyatta out west even without attempting a race, what does that say? Then we come to the Apple Blossom and again they are not confident of facing Zenyatta on their preferred surface. Again that doesn't speak volumes from a faction that believes their horse is superior. Again, I state I believe Rachel is a good horse, a very good horse infact. Great? Not at this point. Better than Zenyatta not even close at this stage, Jess knows this and that is why we now have a last minute entry of Rach in the "Careless Jeweless" La Troienne. But Jess and SA have always been great at cherry picking races haven't they?

I take opposition to this.
1) The premier race in the country for her gender and age (selected by her previous connections, otherwise they probably would have gone in the Derby.)
2) The 2nd jewel of the Triple Crown- against males.
3) A G1 at Belmont Park (very few showed up- understandably on their part.)
4) One of the two "midsummer Derbies"- against males.
5) A G1 at the premier track in the country against older males.

Calling that cherrypicking is crazytalk.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Because, as your fellow Zentologist points out, dirt horses have a tougher time transferring their form to synthetic than vice versa. It's not understandable that Jackson didn't want to have an ultimate showdown between the two on a surface that Zenyatta was far more likely to excel on?

The truely great ones can run on anything IMO.

[Revidere]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

especially after what happened with Curlin the year before. What happened with Curlin was that he was over the top and not the same horse, synthetic or dirt. Again, you're deflecting instead of explaining why the immortal Z continues to run against allowance horses in her playpen nine times out of ten. When are the Hall of fame inductions for those Rachel has beaten?


Because, as your fellow Zentologist points out, dirt horses have a tougher time transferring their form to synthetic than vice versa. It's not understandable that Jackson didn't want to have an ultimate showdown between the two on a surface that Zenyatta was far more likely to excel on?

Didn't Rachel win nicely on poly?

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by CSC

There's not much confidence from the Rachel camp when you already concede she will lose to Zenyatta out west even without attempting a race, what does that say? Then we come to the Apple Blossom and again they are not confident of facing Zenyatta on their preferred surface. Again that doesn't speak volumes from a faction that believes their horse is superior. Again, I state I believe Rachel is a good horse, a very good horse infact. Great? Not at this point. Better than Zenyatta not even close at this stage, Jess knows this and that is why we now have a last minute entry of Rach in the "Careless Jeweless" La Troienne. But Jess and SA have always been great at cherry picking races haven't they?

Yeah, they cherry picked the hell out of her races at three. And I'm sure they're ducking Careless Jewel. Just stop it. Did you ever think that perhaps not every single decision they make for RA is with Zenyatta in mind? This pretending that the BCC would've been a fair fight over a surface Rachel never set foot on and one that Zenyatta basically slept on is laughable.

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

The truely great ones can run on anything IMO.

You must have quite the limited list of great horses then, if success on three different surfaces is a prerequisite.

Originally Posted by Revidere

Didn't Rachel win nicely on poly?

She won an N2L at Keeneland. Do I really have to explain why that's different than the Breeders' Cup at Santa Anita? And I'm sure Curlin would've been dusted by a bunch of European turf horses had the BCC been on dirt. As for your other comment, there's a difference between seeking out top competition and perhaps not finding it (even though I think RA's comp in '09 still outweighed Zenyatta's) and running against the same four or five handpicked tomato cans in your backyard all year.

[the_fat_man]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Read below about the BC. Your own logic about dirt and synthetic horses should tell you why they didn't want to run her in the BC, especially after what happened with Curlin the year before. As for the Apple Blossom, I'm disappointed that they didn't run her, but if the horse isn't fit, the horse isn't fit. Unlike the Mosses, Jackson doesn't have a history of treating his supposed superhorse with kid gloves, so he gets the benefit of the doubt. Again, you're deflecting instead of explaining why the immortal Z continues to run against allowance horses in her playpen nine times out of ten.



Because, as your fellow Zentologist points out, dirt horses have a tougher time transferring their form to synthetic than vice versa. It's not understandable that Jackson didn't want to have an ultimate showdown between the two on a surface that Zenyatta was far more likely to excel on?

I think the Jackson camp misread what happened to Curlin. Curlin ran well on turf and he also handled POLY. What he couldn't handle was the setup: he moved too soon in what was a layered, and collapsing, race. RA had an advantage that Curlin didn't, and, that up until recently, was not really exploited by other POLY runners: the ability to control the pace by staying close enough to the lead but not moving prematurely and collapsing the race for the closers. This is what allowed the distance challenged Rail Trip to get 10F in the Pacific Classic. Too bad her connections didn't give her a chance to try the BC.

I'm not deflecting anything: Z won the BC classic last year. Other were welcome to try her. She made the trip to OP this year; others didn't. If you think that she needs to leave CALI to add to her resume, you'll also probably agree that she needn't do it except where it works to her advantage. Why ship the horse for meaningless races? She'll ship for the BC, at least. What else does she really need to prove? If she beats the dirt best at CD, then she's done about all she needs to.

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by the_fat_man

I'm not deflecting anything: Z won the BC classic last year. Other were welcome to try her. She made the trip to OP this year; others didn't. If you think that she needs to leave CALI to add to her resume, you'll also probably agree that she needn't do it except where it works to her advantage. Why ship the horse for meaningless races? She'll ship for the BC, at least. What else does she really need to prove? If she beats the dirt best at CD, then she's done about all she needs to.

Why keep the horse in California? To save on shipping costs? Except for two weak Apple Blossoms and a mediocre BCC, she's won the same four or five races against the same four or five horses two years running. How much more boring can you get running her in the Vanity again? You might as well have kept her retired or turned her into a dressage horse, because the reality is she won't get tested unless she leaves California. But that's the point. They don't appear to want to test her now that she won the BCC and made the Oaklawn appearance. They seem to want to keep her undefeated as long as possible. She's had one major test in her career. She passed it. If that's all there is to prove in your mind, then you've got some low expectations for her.

[Clip-Clop]

Originally Posted by CSC

If Zenyatta stays in California the rest of the year I will be the 1st to criticize her, however she did ship to the Apple Blossom to face Rach, on dirt. So you know what you said is not completely true, we will see a different campaign this year due to them pointing for the BC; however it is also fair to point out Rachel never shipped out west either, nor is she planning to, so I don't understand why she gets a free pass when the other doesn't.

Saratoga, Monmouth, Pimlico, Churchill, Oaklawn, Fairgounds. All that travel last year bought her the pass. I think both of these horses are beasts and really look forward to seeing them face each other. Z gets plenty of respect (well deserved), people like to argue mythical head to heads, this just happens to be one where, if the stars align (pun intended) we will actually get to see it.