Lawyer Ron Goes to Pletcher..

[Gander]

He would Scavs. You'd go from running 8 minute miles to 7 minute miles in 2 weeks.

Fleet Scavs, Scavs Indian.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by Gander

He would Scavs. You'd go from running 8 minute miles to 7 minute miles in 2 weeks.

Fleet Scavs, Scavs Indian.

ha, ha!

Do you guys honestly think that Pletcher initiated this?
That he was calling the owners up and begging to get this horse?
I doubt it highly.
I would imagine that after being rank once again, and losing narrowly in a big money race, that the owners wanted to make a change and try something new.
I guess I understand that people dislike the rich getting richer. But where were you guys when Mandella got Rock Hard Ten? Why wasn't there crying or bellyaching then?
How about when Kirian got Henny Hughes? Where was this outpouring of concern over loyalty or sympathy?
I guess I don't get it.

[paisjpq]

Originally Posted by oracle80

Do you guys honestly think that Pletcher initiated this?
That he was calling the owners up and begging to get this horse?

where did anyone say this?

Originally Posted by paisjpq

where did anyone say this?

Well I mean why the venom at Todd then? What exactly has he done wrong here?
A guy called him up and said we are making a trainer switch on the horse, will you take him? Only a fool wouldn't. If he had said no, they woulda called another guy. Someone was gonna get him, may as well have been him.

[paisjpq]

Originally Posted by oracle80

Well I mean why the venom at Todd then? What exactly has he done wrong here?
A guy called him up and said we are making a trainer switch on the horse, will you take him? Only a fool wouldn't. If he had said no, they woulda called another guy. Someone was gonna get him, may as well have been him.

I think the general venom (not all but most ) is directed toward the owners...of course they probably made the right business decision for the horse and of course todd would be a fool to turn the horse down...but business or not, it's a sh*tty human being that pulls a horse with ten minutes notice JMO.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by oracle80

Well I mean why the venom at Todd then? What exactly has he done wrong here?
A guy called him up and said we are making a trainer switch on the horse, will you take him? Only a fool wouldn't. If he had said no, they woulda called another guy. Someone was gonna get him, may as well have been him.

I didn't mean to say that Pletcher hustled the horse or any horse but he is seemingly the only trainer in the business that gets horses like this handed to him on a silver platter. Henny Hughes was sold and as such was moved(though its hard to get teary-eyed for Biancone based upon the depth in his barn) from one mega trainer to another with a little sidetrip to dubai included. Stop defending Pletcher like your his lawyer for a minute ( no pun intended) to see that its discouraging from a standpoint from the other 99% of the business that doesn't have horses with him or sell them to him.
Do you really think that there aren't any other trainers that might have a shot with doing well with a horse such as this?
Pletcher/Dutrow have decreased the quality of racing in NY simply by dominating all the pertinent divisions to the extent where the majority of NY owners get NY breds and dont even try to compete. I dont blame the guy for taking the horse but you dont have to feel good about it.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I didn't mean to say that Pletcher hustled the horse or any horse but he is seemingly the only trainer in the business that gets horses like this handed to him on a silver platter. Henny Hughes was sold and as such was moved(though its hard to get teary-eyed for Biancone based upon the depth in his barn) from one mega trainer to another with a little sidetrip to dubai included. Stop defending Pletcher like your his lawyer for a minute ( no pun intended) to see that its discouraging from a standpoint from the other 99% of the business that doesn't have horses with him or sell them to him.
Do you really think that there aren't any other trainers that might have a shot with doing well with a horse such as this?
Pletcher/Dutrow have decreased the quality of racing in NY simply by dominating all the pertinent divisions to the extent where the majority of NY owners get NY breds and dont even try to compete. I dont blame the guy for taking the horse but you dont have to feel good about it.

Cannon Shell that was pretty stupid. I'm not trying to be Pletcher's lawyer, and I suggest you enroll in some reading comprehension classes so you can see my point.
Do I think its a "feel good" story? No, its most definitely not. Todd doesnt need another good horse, very true.
But all you bleeding hearts really miss the point. The guy who overpaid(seemingly, at least for now) is stuck his nuts on the deal. So he wanted to try and get out from under by switching to the leading trainer in America.
Is this really such a horrible thing?
How can you feel sorrier for a guy who made a pocketful of money on the horse(Holthus) then the guy whose out a brinks truck on him.
I don't see Pletcher as a factor in this story at all, and he certainly doesn't need to be defended here by me or anyone else.

[blackthroatedwind]

Pletcher IS a factor in this story if for no other reason than the one Cannon Shell just pointed out....he simply controls too many horses in each condition ( along with Dutrow to a lesser extent ) in NY and thus makes it that much harder to fill the races. There is really no arguing this.

Now, NOBODY is blaming Todd, or saying it's his fault per se, but the situation is what it is, and it is not good for the game overall. No, this one situation, were it isolated would be about other things ( like loyalty ), but in the big picture this situation is a BIG problem...and it only seems to be getting worse.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by oracle80

Cannon Shell that was pretty stupid. I'm not trying to be Pletcher's lawyer, and I suggest you enroll in some reading comprehension classes so you can see my point.
Do I think its a "feel good" story? No, its most definitely not. Todd doesnt need another good horse, very true.
But all you bleeding hearts really miss the point. The guy who overpaid(seemingly, at least for now) is stuck his nuts on the deal. So he wanted to try and get out from under by switching to the leading trainer in America.
Is this really such a horrible thing?
How can you feel sorrier for a guy who made a pocketful of money on the horse(Holthus) then the guy whose out a brinks truck on him.
I don't see Pletcher as a factor in this story at all, and he certainly doesn't need to be defended here by me or anyone else.

No need to get so defensive. I understand your point and I understand that its a business, I understand that he made a lot of money with the horse, I understand that Pletcher is the leading trainer in the country.
The fact that the guy has bought questionable stallion prospect for way more than market value actually makes no difference. The whole point that I am trying to bring up is that when the same few barns get all the good babies and take the established stars too, it makes for an unhealthy sport.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by oracle80

Do you guys honestly think that Pletcher initiated this?
That he was calling the owners up and begging to get this horse?
I doubt it highly.
I would imagine that after being rank once again, and losing narrowly in a big money race, that the owners wanted to make a change and try something new.
I guess I understand that people dislike the rich getting richer. But where were you guys when Mandella got Rock Hard Ten? Why wasn't there crying or bellyaching then?
How about when Kirian got Henny Hughes? Where was this outpouring of concern over loyalty or sympathy?
I guess I don't get it.

That one sucks too, because didn't Gary get the call while at lunch with Jason Orman?

You've voiced your opinion about how people can trounce on you in the business too. (stallion seasons) Sure it was the owner's right and sure it is business, but it still sucks.

Originally Posted by Sightseek

That one sucks too, because didn't Gary get the call while at lunch with Jason Orman?

You've voiced your opinion about how people can trounce on you in the business too. (stallion seasons) Sure it was the owner's right and sure it is business, but it still sucks.

I think his inability to get the horse to quit being rank certainly didn't help matters any.
Like I said, I think Holthus happens to be a great trainer, every year he develops something very nicely, and he doesnt get all bluebloods.
But you really can't blame a guy who spent a lotta dough on a horse for trying a change.
I think there is a perspective problem here, and allow me to point out that Holthus made the former owner a fortune and won a lotta races, but for the new guy, hes made 3 starts, and had one win, in the illustrious St Louis Derby.
What he did with the horse before Stonewall bought him really doesn't matter to them.
I think if he wins his last race, they never make the switch, never. But he lost with the rankness again, and if I had kicked up that kind of dough for a horse, I can see where I might be a tad upset when he blows a big purse by being rank again. Its not irrational to make a move they feel is in their best interests. And may I remind you of something else, everybody has made a lotta cash on this horse, except the current owner!!!! The former owner and his estate, the trainer, the jockey, the people who own the mare or the half siblings all made out great!!! But the guy who owns him now, well he aint doing so hot compared to them, that guys stuck a lotta cabbage. Lots easier to be loyal and all that when you aren't stuck your ass on an investment.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by oracle80

I think his inability to get the horse to quit being rank certainly didn't help matters any.
Like I said, I think Holthus happens to be a great trainer, every year he develops something very nicely, and he doesnt get all bluebloods.
But you really can't blame a guy who spent a lotta dough on a horse for trying a change.
I think there is a perspective problem here, and allow me to point out that Holthus made the former owner a fortune and won a lotta races, but for the new guy, hes made 3 starts, and had one win, in the illustrious St Louis Derby.
What he did with the horse before Stonewall bought him really doesn't matter to them.
I think if he wins his last race, they never make the switch, never. But he lost with the rankness again, and if I had kicked up that kind of dough for a horse, I can see where I might be a tad upset when he blows a big purse by being rank again. Its not irrational to make a move they feel is in their best interests. And may I remind you of something else, everybody has made a lotta cash on this horse, except the current owner!!!! The former owner and his estate, the trainer, the jockey, the people who own the mare or the half siblings all made out great!!! But the guy who owns him now, well he aint doing so hot compared to them, that guys stuck a lotta cabbage. Lots easier to be loyal and all that when you aren't stuck your ass on an investment.

I can certainly understand that view, I guess personally I would have tried a jockey change.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

I can certainly understand that view, I guess personally I would have tried a jockey change.

That may not have been an option for the owners. Holthus could have refused to replace McKee.

[Honu]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

I can certainly understand that view, I guess personally I would have tried a jockey change.

How can you expect a jockey to change a horses demeaner in the 14 minutes he is on him for the race, its not like he goes by and gallops the horse everyday and works with him. I agree with Oracles assesment of the situation, very much the same as comparing the Rock Hard Ten change, some trainers are more capable of getting thru to the horse than others and for this owner he had a right to try something diffirent.

Originally Posted by Honu

How can you expect a jockey to change a horses demeaner in the 14 minutes he is on him for the race, its not like he goes by and gallops the horse everyday and works with him. I agree with Oracles assesment of the situation, very much the same as comparing the Rock Hard Ten change, some trainers are more capable of getting thru to the horse than others and for this owner he had a right to try something diffirent.

Honu,
First of all congrats on another job well done. Perhaps if people realized that its the work of exercise riders like yourself, who follow instructions from the trainer in regards to the morning programs, that they would know that a jockey can't just make a rank horse relax.
Jockeys weigh about 115 pounds, horses weigh at least 1000 pounds. Doesn't matter what the jocks skill level is if the horse is rank, the horse is always gonna win.
Its the trainer and his crew whose work in the mornings give you the product in the afternoons. I just can't blame McKee.
It was indeed time for a change. And I still don't think this was anything personal.

Originally Posted by oracle80

And may I remind you of something else, everybody has made a lotta cash on this horse, except the current owner!!!! The former owner and his estate, the trainer, the jockey, the people who own the mare or the half siblings all made out great!!! But the guy who owns him now, well he aint doing so hot compared to them, that guys stuck a lotta cabbage. Lots easier to be loyal and all that when you aren't stuck your ass on an investment.

Since when do owners with money invest in horses to make money?

I think there are much better ways to make or recoup money than buying a racehorse. Since part of this thread has to do with the economics of this deal, it is stupidity for the owner to buy the horse with the expectation of making a profit. Much, Much better places to put money.

If anyone but big breeders make money buy purchasing horses, they are obviously extremely talented and should try something else that they can really make a lot of money. This is NOT a money making sport for owners.