Thoughts On NBA at midseason

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Scav

Have you watched Rose play? You are nuts saying he is shoot first PG. He has been forced into that role because we have no one that can make a shot. Matter of fact, he was TOLD to shoot because of how bad they were playing. They are now playing much better and things have opened up for everyone.

If they got just one of the two you guys are talking about, they are a top 3 team next year in the eastern conference, but if they got both, they would chew up teams, just based on their toughness.

Guess which point guard leads the league in field goal attempts? Wait for it...


Derrick Rose. 894 attempts and he is the only PG in the top ten in fg attempts. By the way, he has more attempts than CHRIS BOSh. LOL

He is 14th in assists. If that isnt a shoot first pg, i dont know what is. As a matter of fact, that is the definition.

[dalakhani]

Even more interesting stat.

Wade, Rose and Bosh are all in the TOP TEN IN LEAGUE IN FG ATTEMPTS. DENG is 18th. They would have 4 guys in the top 20 in FG attempts.

None of them shoot 3's and none of them pass. No...there wouldnt be chemsitry issues.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Even more interesting stat.

Wade, Rose and Bosh are all in the TOP TEN IN LEAGUE IN FG ATTEMPTS. DENG is 18th. They would have 4 guys in the top 20 in FG attempts.

None of them shoot 3's and none of them pass. No...there wouldnt be chemsitry issues.

Are you really this stubborn? Since three of them are the main focus of the offense of their CURRENT teams.

In an average NBA game a team has between 95 and 100 possessions. Using THIS years stats those 4 players average 68 shots per game. That leaves 25-30 shots for others when TO's are considered.

So you dont think that Rose and Deng would each sacrifice a few shots a game to play with Wade and Bosh?

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Are you really this stubborn? Since three of them are the main focus of the offense of their CURRENT teams.

In an average NBA game a team has between 95 and 100 possessions. Using THIS years stats those 4 players average 68 shots per game. That leaves 25-30 shots for others when TO's are considered.

So you dont think that Rose and Deng would each sacrifice a few shots a game to play with Wade and Bosh?

Sacrifice. Change. Chemistry. You are hoping this works! Good plans work when players aren't asked to make wholesale changes to their respective games.

You show me one team where 4 players shoot 70 shots a game. Keep looking because it doesnt exist even in a Don Nelson offense.

This is now getting me even Dumber than Delonte West being anything but an average NBA player. Congrats!

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Sacrifice. Change. Chemistry. You are hoping this works! Good plans work when players aren't asked to make wholesale changes to their respective games.

You show me one team where 4 players shoot 70 shots a game. Keep looking because it doesnt exist even in a Don Nelson offense.

This is now getting me even Dumber than Delonte West being anything but an average NBA player. Congrats!

Only a moron would take the shooting stats from this year on seperate teams and project the same 4 players to do the same thing on one team. Yeah asking Rose to play with Bosh and Wade would be a major sacrifice. I'm sure Deng would insist on getting his 16 shots a game or he would pout.

How's are those Detroit Pistons doing with those great signings they made last year?

Pardon me while I go watch a game...

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Only a moron would take the shooting stats from this year on seperate teams and project the same 4 players to do the same thing on one team. Yeah asking Rose to play with Bosh and Wade would be a major sacrifice. I'm sure Deng would insist on getting his 16 shots a game or he would pout.

How's are those Detroit Pistons doing with those great signings they made last year?

Pardon me while I go watch a game...

Yeah, maybe you should have someone explain it to you...dukes of hazard style. Maybe they can explain to you that there would be chemistry issues putting a team together with no 3 pt shooters and 4 guys in the top 20 in fg attempts. Only a total idiot wouldnt get it even if Red came back from the dead and tried to explain it.

How is Delonte West doing this year anyway? Get a clue and we can continue this pointless discussion.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Yeah, maybe you should have someone explain it to you...dukes of hazard style. Maybe they can explain to you that there would be chemistry issues putting a team together with no 3 pt shooters and 4 guys in the top 20 in fg attempts. Only a total idiot wouldnt get it even if Red came back from the dead and tried to explain it.

How is Delonte West doing this year anyway? Get a clue and we can continue this pointless discussion.

It is pointless to discuss basketball with you. I mean how can anyone use shots attempted in the context that you are using it in? Shots attempted is a stat that is absolutely tied to the other players on the court and their abilities. This isnt like a baseball team signing 4 1st baseman and trying to make it work. Only an idiot would think that Luol Deng wouldn't be the 4th option on that team, hence his shots attempts would be fewer. Only someone who didn't know much would think that Derrick Rose couldn't mesh with D Wade on the offensive end of the floor and in doing so reduce the number of attempts he would make. Only someone who was clueless wouldn't see that having 2 world class slashers and a good post passer would free up a lot of open looks for the other players. If you really knew the game as well as you thought you did you would have brought up the potential frontcourt defensive issues with that team, especially against the other Eastern Conference contenders.

Delonte West is a key player on the team with the best record in basketball. Yeah he sucks.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Guess which point guard leads the league in field goal attempts? Wait for it...


Derrick Rose. 894 attempts and he is the only PG in the top ten in fg attempts. By the way, he has more attempts than CHRIS BOSh. LOL

He is 14th in assists. If that isnt a shoot first pg, i dont know what is. As a matter of fact, that is the definition.

Yeah sure and the situation that he has now is really similar to the one proposed. As Scavs said they dont have many other offensive options at the present time. Perhaps if you knew about the injury issues that the bulls have been dealing with not to mention the precarious situation that the head coach is in you wuld understand why he NEEDS to be the focal point of the offense.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Yeah sure and the situation that he has now is really similar to the one proposed. As Scavs said they dont have many other offensive options at the present time. Perhaps if you knew about the injury issues that the bulls have been dealing with not to mention the precarious situation that the head coach is in you wuld understand why he NEEDS to be the focal point of the offense.

LOL. I love the cop out. Like you and Scav have special access to insider bulls info. Every team has injury issues and any coach in the NBA not on a winning team on ly has so long. Vinny will make it to the end of the season barring something crazy.

I love Rose as a player. I think he is an excellent player. The part that Rose isn't a shoot first point guard is especially funny considering thats what he was at Memphis and thats what he has been so far in two seasons in chicago. My assessment is based on facts...indisputable facts. Yours is based on speculative jibberish about what you HOPE he might CHANGE into.

Hope and change...maybe we are on to something!

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

LOL. I love the cop out. Like you and Scav have special access to insider bulls info. Every team has injury issues and any coach in the NBA not on a winning team on ly has so long. Vinny will make it to the end of the season barring something crazy.

I love Rose as a player. I think he is an excellent player. The part that Rose isn't a shoot first point guard is especially funny considering thats what he was at Memphis and thats what he has been so far in two seasons in chicago. My assessment is based on facts...indisputable facts. Yours is based on speculative jibberish about what you HOPE he might CHANGE into.

Hope and change...maybe we are on to something!

Cop out? I dont know about Scavs but I actually watch understand the games. Anyone with a clue would see the Bulls best chance at success with the current roster and yes with the injuries is for Rose to be the focal point of the offense and yes that means he get to shoot 17 times a game. You act like he is hoisting up 30 a game. You act as though the coach doesnt matter but when you have a guy like Del Negro holding on by his fingernails he is interested in winning now and on the team he has the best chance is to create offense via Rose.

Your facts are quite useless as we arent talking about each individuals current situation. Since we are talking hypothetically you have to have a little better understanding of professional basketball then just throwing out he shoots 3 shots a game more than other PG's so there is no way he could ever be able to pass the ball to Dwayne wade and Chris Bosh and only shoot 13 times a game. You cant ask him to be a distributor on the three teams that we have seen him play on. Does that mean he cant? This isn't like you are asking him to get 15 rebounds a game or block 5 shots. You are asking him to share the ball with one of the top 3 players in the sport. He has been a shoot first point guard by necessity not because it is all he can do.

I guess if I see Jerry Colangelo today I better tell him to cut Rose from the National team roster because he can't pass to all star players.

[Scav]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

LOL. I love the cop out. Like you and Scav have special access to insider bulls info. Every team has injury issues and any coach in the NBA not on a winning team on ly has so long. Vinny will make it to the end of the season barring something crazy.

I love Rose as a player. I think he is an excellent player. The part that Rose isn't a shoot first point guard is especially funny considering thats what he was at Memphis and thats what he has been so far in two seasons in chicago. My assessment is based on facts...indisputable facts. Yours is based on speculative jibberish about what you HOPE he might CHANGE into.

Hope and change...maybe we are on to something!

First off, I am Mr. Chicago.

2nd off, you need to actually watch these games. I have followed Rose since he played in high school (I saw a game live where he went against Jon Scheyer at Duke as someone told me I had to see Rose play, and seeing that game proceeded me to bet the living **** out of Memphis to win the NCAA Title the following year).

CDR was the go-to guy on Memphis. Derrick Rose is FAR from a shoot first guy. Matter of fact, he basically just found his jump shot and is still tweaking it. He was told up here to stop passing the damn ball to people that couldn't make shots. Vinny even said as much in a press conference where he told him to start taking over games and stop being so damn passive.

I love to see these facts that show he is a shoot first guy.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Scav

First off, I am Mr. Chicago.

2nd off, you need to actually watch these games. I have followed Rose since he played in high school (I saw a game live where he went against Jon Scheyer at Duke as someone told me I had to see Rose play, and seeing that game proceeded me to bet the living **** out of Memphis to win the NCAA Title the following year).

CDR was the go-to guy on Memphis. Derrick Rose is FAR from a shoot first guy. Matter of fact, he basically just found his jump shot and is still tweaking it. He was told up here to stop passing the damn ball to people that couldn't make shots. Vinny even said as much in a press conference where he told him to start taking over games and stop being so damn passive.

I love to see these facts that show he is a shoot first guy.

First off, I've watched Rose play plenty of times. I don't give a **** if youre dr detroit, Rose is a shoot first point guard and the stats bear it out. CDR was the leading scorer for that Memphis team. Do you realize that he only took 40 more shots than Rose did for the entire year that year? Do you realize that Rose averaged only 4.7 assists per game that season despite playing with 3 future NBA draft picks? Do you realize that Rose took 17 shots in the title game and was 1-6 from the 3 pt range?

Do you realize that Rose is 8th in the league in attempts this year? Do you realize that he averages 5.7 assists per game vs. 17.5 shots? When you shoot 3 times more than you pass you are a shoot first point guard anyway you spin it.

Found his jump shot? He is shooting 22% from 3 pt range. He better keep looking.

Listen, I like Rose. I think he is a wonderful young player. He could very well develop into a better distibutor but that isnt his game yet. It may never be. still, its not an indictment saying that he is a shoot first PG. My favorite player is a shoot first PG. isaiah thomas was a shoot first PG. At the same time, pairing him with three other guys that all want the ball would be a chemistry issue.

Could that team win games? Of course. Win championships? I don't think so.

I gave you stats to back up my point. Do you have any stats or facts or just rumors of Del Negro rantings and tales of high school glory?

[Scav]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

First off, I've watched Rose play plenty of times. I don't give a **** if youre dr detroit, Rose is a shoot first point guard and the stats bear it out. CDR was the leading scorer for that Memphis team. Do you realize that he only took 40 more shots than Rose did for the entire year that year? Do you realize that Rose averaged only 4.7 assists per game that season despite playing with 3 future NBA draft picks? Do you realize that Rose took 17 shots in the title game and was 1-6 from the 3 pt range?

Do you realize that Rose is 8th in the league in attempts this year? Do you realize that he averages 5.7 assists per game vs. 17.5 shots? When you shoot 3 times more than you pass you are a shoot first point guard anyway you spin it.
Found his jump shot? He is shooting 22% from 3 pt range. He better keep looking.

Listen, I like Rose. I think he is a wonderful young player. He could very well develop into a better distibutor but that isnt his game yet. It may never be. still, its not an indictment saying that he is a shoot first PG. My favorite player is a shoot first PG. isaiah thomas was a shoot first PG. At the same time, pairing him with three other guys that all want the ball would be a chemistry issue.

Could that team win games? Of course. Win championships? I don't think so.

I gave you stats to back up my point. Do you have any stats or facts or just rumors of Del Negro rantings and tales of high school glory?

The thing that you are just not comprehending is that the reason those numbers are the way they are is because who he is surrounded with. When Noah or Thomas are on the floor, it is basically 4 on 5 on the offensive side of the ball. Deng takes nights off too. He has been forced into that role.

And using Memphis statistics to prove a point is nuts. That offensive is strictly based on if you can break someone down, you do it, and if you can't get past the person for a layup/dunk, you dish the rock. Rose was strictly quicker then everyone that year, and just blew by people.

Also, so you know, jump shots and 3 pt shots are completely different. He has found his 12-15 foot JUMP SHOT. His 3pt shooting is far from average.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Scav

The thing that you are just not comprehending is that the reason those numbers are the way they are is because who he is surrounded with. When Noah or Thomas are on the floor, it is basically 4 on 5 on the offensive side of the ball. Deng takes nights off too. He has been forced into that role.

And using Memphis statistics to prove a point is nuts. That offensive is strictly based on if you can break someone down, you do it, and if you can't get past the person for a layup/dunk, you dish the rock. Rose was strictly quicker then everyone that year, and just blew by people.

Also, so you know, jump shots and 3 pt shots are completely different. He has found his 12-15 foot JUMP SHOT. His 3pt shooting is far from average.

Okay, first and foremost, the "dribble drive" is Calipari's offense...just so you know. John Wall is playing in the same offense and averages 2 assists more per game. Is he not quick? Does he not blow by people? He passes first and shoots second. He is a Pass first point guard. Maybe you can comprehend that some day.

Also, so you know, 12-15 ft range is a joke in the NBA. Any player, not 7 ft and 300 lbs is required to have that coming into the league. If you cant hit a 12 foot shot, you arent playing. Rose could shoot 12 ft. Heck, he could shoot to about 18 coming into the league. He is isnt finding a 12 ft shot. LOL

Seriously, Dr Chicago, you need to stick to giving out loser Saluki picks. Your knowledge of NBA hoop is lacking if you think one of the better young point guards in the league is now just "finding" a 12 ft jumper.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Do you realize that Rose is 8th in the league in attempts this year? Do you realize that he averages 5.7 assists per game vs. 17.5 shots? When you shoot 3 times more than you pass you are a shoot first point guard anyway you spin it.
Found his jump shot? He is shooting 22% from 3 pt range. He better keep looking.

You do realize that the player you pass it to needs to score in order to get an assist right? That a shot attempted is counted regardless of whether it goes in or not right? So your versus comparison is not really accurate in the way that you portray it?

Derrick Rose has played 1844 minutes this season. He has taken 22 three point shots. So he takes a three point shot every 84 minutes. Quite relevant these numbers you are using as "facts" when we are having a theoretical discussion.

You want to breakdown things that can't be broken down. Basketball isnt baseball, the absolutes are far greater in baseball. While you are somewhat effected by the park you play in and helped or hurt slightly by the calibur of hitters in front and behind you you basically are on your own at the plate. Same with a pitcher who is effected by the park and the defense behind him. But in the end guys who can hit do about what they are able to do. Same with pitchers. But in basketball you are far more effected statistically by the system your team runs and the players strength and weaknesses around you. I hate to keep bringing up Channng Frye but his example is easily understood. He didnt learn to shoot three point shots over the summer. He has just been allowed (encouraged?) to shoot them this year because the system of offense and team he plays for allows it. There was no stats that could have predicted him going from a guy who shot 20 for 70 for his entire 4 year career to a guy who has shot 120-277 in 53 games this year. If I had said that I thought Channing Frye was going to have a breakout year as a three point shooter this year you would have called me an idiot and said that no way he goes from taking 30 all year to shooting 5 a game. While admittedly there was little chance of me coming up with that hypothesis, there is a 100% chance that I would have got called an idiot and you would have dragged out the stats to "prove" it. The idea that the team I proposed (which can't really happen I found out tonight because of salary cap rules even if they were able to trade Thomas and Hinrich) could mesh and Deng and Rose would sacrifice a few shots when playing with other offensive stars is far less of a stretch than Frye becoming a prolific three point shooter.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

You do realize that the player you pass it to needs to score in order to get an assist right? That a shot attempted is counted regardless of whether it goes in or not right? So your versus comparison is not really accurate in the way that you portray it?

Derrick Rose has played 1844 minutes this season. He has taken 22 three point shots. So he takes a three point shot every 84 minutes. Quite relevant these numbers you are using as "facts" when we are having a theoretical discussion.

You want to breakdown things that can't be broken down. Basketball isnt baseball, the absolutes are far greater in baseball. While you are somewhat effected by the park you play in and helped or hurt slightly by the calibur of hitters in front and behind you you basically are on your own at the plate. Same with a pitcher who is effected by the park and the defense behind him. But in the end guys who can hit do about what they are able to do. Same with pitchers. But in basketball you are far more effected statistically by the system your team runs and the players strength and weaknesses around you. I hate to keep bringing up Channng Frye but his example is easily understood. He didnt learn to shoot three point shots over the summer. He has just been allowed (encouraged?) to shoot them this year because the system of offense and team he plays for allows it. There was no stats that could have predicted him going from a guy who shot 20 for 70 for his entire 4 year career to a guy who has shot 120-277 in 53 games this year. If I had said that I thought Channing Frye was going to have a breakout year as a three point shooter this year you would have called me an idiot and said that no way he goes from taking 30 all year to shooting 5 a game. While admittedly there was little chance of me coming up with that hypothesis, there is a 100% chance that I would have got called an idiot and you would have dragged out the stats to "prove" it. The idea that the team I proposed (which can't really happen I found out tonight because of salary cap rules even if they were able to trade Thomas and Hinrich) could mesh and Deng and Rose would sacrifice a few shots when playing with other offensive stars is far less of a stretch than Frye becoming a prolific three point shooter.

There is no doubt that system plays a piece in a player's performance. After watching the D'antoni system the last few years, I wouldn't be surprised if anyone short of shaq became a decent three baller especially the way Nash runs it. Frye always showed range although not 3 pt range. I dont think its so much of a stretch at all. He was always a soft perimeter player anyway with no low post game to speak of.

I will say that Rose becoming a decent three point shooter would shock me a whole lot more than Frye becoming one has. Rose becoming a great passer doesnt surprise me because he is already a great passer. He has incredible vision. I never said he didnt. Its just not his game. He isnt a spot up guy and he wants the ball. Wade isnt a spot up guy and wants the ball. Neither of them have range to open up the middle to drive or free up the low post. Thats the point.

I get your point. We simply disagree. Can we move on?