The Michael Gill/Penn National Riders Saga

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Kasept

That's addressed in today's piece...

http://www.paulickreport.com/blog/gi...hats-so-wrong/

He's been involved in a 5 year evaluation by IRS on the hobby/business equation:

Though he said he has lost tens of millions of dollars over the years, Gill claims he didn’t “put one penny of my money into the business last year. I can go to the IRS and say this is a business, it isn’t a hobby.” Gill said he is in a five-year audit with the Internal Revenue Service over whether or not his racing stable is a legitimate business.

He loves to pay for things and people cash. Keeps the on the books expenses down, makes it easier to try to declare a profit and avoids all those pesky payroll taxes and workmans compensation audits.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

He loves to pay for things and people cash. Keeps the on the books expenses down, makes it easier to try to declare a profit and avoids all those pesky payroll taxes and workmans compensation audits.

From that article:
- He attributes much of the stable’s success to the fact he gives all of his horses medication for Equine Protozoal Myeloencephalitis, or EPM, a neurological disease. “A good 80% of horses have EPM,” he said. He also has throat surgeries, or myectomies, performed on many of the horses he claims because “with EPM, one side of the flap (in the epiglottis) is gone, and the other half doubles in size. Then it closes up. The surgery helps them breathe.”

Chuck, question - what treatment would he be giving for EPM? I thought they were still working on finding good treatment and the existing treatments came with lengthy treatment times, time off for the horse and possible side-effects like anemia? (besides Gill's stats being wrong)

[Rudeboyelvis]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

From that article:
- He attributes much of the stable’s success to the fact he gives all of his horses medication for Equine Protozoal Myeloencephalitis, or EPM, a neurological disease. “A good 80% of horses have EPM,” he said. He also has throat surgeries, or myectomies, performed on many of the horses he claims because “with EPM, one side of the flap (in the epiglottis) is gone, and the other half doubles in size. Then it closes up. The surgery helps them breathe.”

Chuck, question - what treatment would he be giving for EPM? I thought they were still working on finding good treatment and the existing treatments came with lengthy treatment times, time off for the horse and possible side-effects like anemia?

Figure 8 bridle

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by Rudeboyelvis

Figure 8 bridle

You mean, like the type Freddy uses?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

From that article:
- He attributes much of the stable’s success to the fact he gives all of his horses medication for Equine Protozoal Myeloencephalitis, or EPM, a neurological disease. “A good 80% of horses have EPM,” he said. He also has throat surgeries, or myectomies, performed on many of the horses he claims because “with EPM, one side of the flap (in the epiglottis) is gone, and the other half doubles in size. Then it closes up. The surgery helps them breathe.”

Chuck, question - what treatment would he be giving for EPM? I thought they were still working on finding good treatment and the existing treatments came with lengthy treatment times, time off for the horse and possible side-effects like anemia? (besides Gill's stats being wrong)

He used to give oral meds that are pretty commonly used. I suppose he still does the same. Not cheap either even if you are buying it in vats. His statement is impossible to verify by the way. 80% of horses may have been exposed to EPM but that doesnt mean that giving them medications will help them in any manner.

[Thoroughbred Fan]

He may worm them, he may give them meds for EPM, he may change their diet, he may change their shoes. It is all legit, but also subterfuge for whatever is really going on.

He still wins a a great rate which is not always explained by those things. He places them aggressively and may be an alchemist. What ever he does...he will always be suspected of wrong.

No sympathy for him, but it must be tough to be him.

[GBBob]

Originally Posted by Thoroughbred Fan

He may worm them, he may give them meds for EPM, he may change their diet, he may change their shoes. It is all legit, but also subterfuge for whatever is really going on.

He still wins a a great rate which is not always explained by those things. He places them aggressively and may be an alchemist. What ever he does...he will always be suspected of wrong.

No sympathy for him, but it must be tough to be him.

Why man??...It must be tough to be one of his horses. You reap what you sew...end of story. He is two centuries beyond trafficking in humans, and if he really wanted, I'm sure there are a few people in the former Czech Republic who could teach him what maiden claimers are all about.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Thoroughbred Fan

What ever he does...he will always be suspected of wrong.

It's hard to suspect him of doing anything right with his Philly Park division ... he's winning at 6% with over 100 starters over the last few months ... and wasn't exactly making much of an impression before that.

[GBBob]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

It's hard to suspect him of doing anything right with his Philly Park division ... he's winning at 6% with over 100 starters over the last few months ... and wasn't exactly making much of an impression before that.

Then he's truly an azzhole....can't even run horses into the ground the right way

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by GBBob

Then he's truly an azzhole....can't even run horses into the ground the right way

The vast majority of those same horses would be run in the ground anyway with or without a Mike Gill owning them.

People say about the true alchemists "but horses don't break down for them at an appallingly high rate" .... but what happens when your ordinary trainer claims from them - or gets one transferred to them?

Yep, said horse goes on to fall off of the face of the planet at an appallingly high and fast rate.

I love that reasoning ... 'so and so does get huge form reversals, does wins races at eye-popping percentages, does generate a long term flat bet profit on the betting dollar even though everyone overbets the form of their horses .. this is all true ... but they don't breakdown for them .. they just often breakdown not long after they leave'

[The Indomitable DrugS]

By the way .... this was my favorite line from the PR....

He has fired Darrel Delahoussaye, the trainer of Laughing Moon. “They (Penn National) put a gun to my head, and someone had to take the bullet,” he said. “I feel bad about this. But if I lose the (49) stalls at Penn National, I’m out of business.”

Losing Delahoussaye had to feel like losing a sore tooth.

He was one of the most brutally bad trainers I've ever seen at Mountaineer. There are two different kinds of 5% trainers at Mountaineer.. the sneaky not-so-bad ones who have a barn full of nothing but hopeless rats and are 20/1 most of the time .. or the Darrel Delahoussaye kind who just suck dog crap through a straw.

I remember another MTR trainer telling me over the summer about how he "loads them up with everything" ... I told him "does the stuff he loads them up with make them want to stop running when they see the 1/4 pole?"

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

By the way .... this was my favorite line from the PR....




Losing Delahoussaye had to feel like losing a sore tooth.

He was one of the most brutally bad trainers I've ever seen at Mountaineer. There are two different kinds of 5% trainers at Mountaineer.. the sneaky not-so-bad ones who have a barn full of nothing but hopeless rats and are 20/1 most of the time .. or the Darrel Delahoussaye kind who just suck dog crap through a straw.

I remember another MTR trainer telling me over the summer about how he "loads them up with everything" ... I told him "does the stuff he loads them up with make them want to stop running when they see the 1/4 pole?"

Aren't stalls granted to trainers not owners?

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Thoroughbred Fan

He may worm them, he may give them meds for EPM, he may change their diet, he may change their shoes. It is all legit, but also subterfuge for whatever is really going on.

He still wins a a great rate which is not always explained by those things. He places them aggressively and may be an alchemist. What ever he does...he will always be suspected of wrong.
No sympathy for him, but it must be tough to be him.

seeing as how he once had a vet cut the leg off a horse, he's got no one to blame but himself for that. a reputation is certainly more easy to ruin than to repair. i don't feel bad for him, but i do feel bad for the horses in his...ahem...'care'.

[Rudeboyelvis]

Don't they run 4k open claimers for 18K at Penn Nat? Hard to believe you can't make a living even if you hit 20%...

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Rudeboyelvis

Don't they run 4k open claimers for 18K at Penn Nat? Hard to believe you can't make a living even if you hit 20%...

at $50 per day and 120 horses that is over $2.1 million for those horses alone. And that is before vets, farm salaries, shipping, workmans comp, purchase prices, maintenance and other expenses at the farm, etc. An operation done semi-right of that size with a farm would cost $4-5 million. He ran 2247 horses last year so you can pretty much double all the figures since with a 120 horse operation it would mean his horses averaged close to 19 starts each. He states in the Paulick article today he had 450 horses last year at one time. The day he had 450 horses at say $50 a day it was costing him $22000 a day without the other expenses factored in. That is around 8 million in expenses without regard to one cent of purchase price.

[Rudeboyelvis]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

at $50 per day and 120 horses that is over $2.1 million for those horses alone. And that is before vets, farm salaries, shipping, workmans comp, purchase prices, maintenance and other expenses at the farm, etc. An operation done semi-right of that size with a farm would cost $4-5 million. He ran 2247 horses last year so you can pretty much double all the figures since with a 120 horse operation it would mean his horses averaged close to 19 starts each. He states in the Paulick article today he had 450 horses last year at one time. The day he had 450 horses at say $50 a day it was costing him $22000 a day without the other expenses factored in. That is around 8 million in expenses without regard to one cent of purchase price.

You can't argue the general to the specific and vice versa. I have no idea what this guy does, but would imagine his expenses are not near 50.00 a day per horse unless he is stabling every horse at the track (which he is not) and further have no idea what he pays his program trainers to run them. Slot money is gargantuan with respect to traditional models...Obviously he'd be losing his shirt running 5k races for 7500 like here in Tampa, but 4x + purses are crazy and certainly pays for the balance of the ones that don't pan out or, unfortunately, drop dead.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Rudeboyelvis

You can't argue the general to the specific and vice versa. I have no idea what this guy does, but would imagine his expenses are not near 50.00 a day per horse unless he is stabling every horse at the track (which he is not) and further have no idea what he pays his program trainers to run them. Slot money is gargantuan with respect to traditional models...Obviously he'd be losing his shirt running 5k races for 7500 like here in Tampa, but 4x + purses are crazy and certainly pays for the balance of the ones that don't pan out or, unfortunately, drop dead.

Gill is NOT losing money he may not be earning and he might be reporting several hundred k in loses BUT he is earning.. This is not an ego trip as for 4k a nite his ego can be rubbed and tugged to golry

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Gill is NOT losing money he may not be earning and he might be reporting several hundred k in loses BUT he is earning.. This is not an ego trip as for 4k a nite his ego can be rubbed and tugged to golry

You are as correct about this as you were about Paragallo.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

You are as correct about this as you were about Paragallo.

You figure he is getting his rocks off of 40k a week?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Rudeboyelvis

You can't argue the general to the specific and vice versa. I have no idea what this guy does, but would imagine his expenses are not near 50.00 a day per horse unless he is stabling every horse at the track (which he is not) and further have no idea what he pays his program trainers to run them. Slot money is gargantuan with respect to traditional models...Obviously he'd be losing his shirt running 5k races for 7500 like here in Tampa, but 4x + purses are crazy and certainly pays for the balance of the ones that don't pan out or, unfortunately, drop dead.

You cant be serious since you know what it costs to have horses. I mean do the math. He said he had over 450 horses last year. If he spent an average of 10k on each that is over 4 million right there. You really think you can run that many horses for less than $50 a day with vet included?If his prerace including Lasix was $50 per starter which is very light, would be over 110k for that alone. It isnt really close as I have drastically understated his expenses for the most part. The $6 million he earned is a gross number as well. Even if the trainers work for less than 10%, you still have the jocks earnings to pull from there.