Most Talented 3yo since the 90's?

More fun would be best 3 Year Old Season Ever:

Man O' War (undefeated and beat the Triple Crown winner in a match race)
Citation (15 in a row, sweeps the Triple Crown and wins at distances from 6 furlongs to 2 miles in the JCGC)
Secretariat (he lost the Wood and the Whitney remember)

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Dixie Porter

Most overated horse in the history of the game. Best PR campaign in the history of the game.

You'd be amazed at the people that bought into those fairy tales after every loss (5 in all).

That is one horse I really wished would have kept on racing. Nice job by Penny with IRS BS.

As u know, I agree with u to an extent. Now most people will say I'm knocking Sec and that's not true. I do believe that he was one of the all-time greats just nowhere near the best ever. Probably not even top 10. I think it's just mostly mystique nowdays that make people want to list him in their top two or three ever. That Belmont race was a freak effort. He was NOT a 2:24 horse. Look at his Woodward and the turf race to get a better idea of how he was at 12f. Still good but not otherwordly. And just imagine if there had been a horse in the Belmont capable of going in 2:27. Then Sec's margin of victory would have been "only" 15. While still dominant, the perception wouldn't be the way it is today because it was 31 lengths. And who knows what he would have done as a 4yo? It's not a guarantee that they automatically improve. The way he ran as a 3yo could suggest that he was already at his peak. If u are going to say he would have improved, would we then have expected 1:57 10f races, 2:23 12f races, or 1:31 miles? Doubtful. And I think it's a mistake to overlook the fact that he lost two of three races when facing older horses on dirt and although he did run 1:45 2/5 in the Marlboro, remember it's Belmont and one-turn and good horses run fast times there. I have seen Go for Wand and Dispersal run 1:45 4/5 there. Secretariat was great. There is no doubt about that. But still overrated.

[sham]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

As u know, I agree with u to an extent. Now most people will say I'm knocking Sec and that's not true. I do believe that he was one of the all-time greats just nowhere near the best ever. Probably not even top 10. I think it's just mostly mystique nowdays that make people want to list him in their top two or three ever. That Belmont race was a freak effort. He was NOT a 2:24 horse. Look at his Woodward and the turf race to get a better idea of how he was at 12f. Still good but not otherwordly. And just imagine if there had been a horse in the Belmont capable of going in 2:27. Then Sec's margin of victory would have been "only" 15. While still dominant, the perception wouldn't be the way it is today because it was 31 lengths. And who knows what he would have done as a 4yo? It's not a guarantee that they automatically improve. The way he ran as a 3yo could suggest that he was already at his peak. If u are going to say he would have improved, would we then have expected 1:57 10f races, 2:23 12f races, or 1:31 miles? Doubtful. And I think it's a mistake to overlook the fact that he lost two of three races when facing older horses on dirt and although he did run 1:45 2/5 in the Marlboro, remember it's Belmont and one-turn and good horses run fast times there. I have seen Go for Wand and Dispersal run 1:45 4/5 there. Secretariat was great. There is no doubt about that. But still overrated.

Perhaps you could share with us ten 3yos that were better than Secretariat.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by sham

Perhaps you could share with us ten 3yos that were better than Secretariat.

I've debated this for...well, since 1973. Secretariat was the greatest horse to ever set foot on a track...period! All you had to do was see him run to appreciate him...there was no PR campaign, no smoke and mirrors, just pure talent! I won't post in this thread again as folks have their minds made up one way or another...I've given the stats hundreds of times, broken down every race...some folks have an argument for every fact...so be it! He ran a 2:24 in the Belmont...to say he wasn't a 2:24 horse is ridiculous...he ran the race! And Sham was fully capable of running a 2:25...but not after going under 1:10 for 6f...pace makes the race and Secretariat's pace that day reduced the others to also-rans...name me a horse that could have run with him that day? Sham would run the likes Point Given, Sunday Silence and the other so-called "better" horses into oblivion, only Tiznow of the recent runners would possibly best him, and he would have to catch him!

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

I've debated this for...well, since 1973. Secretariat was the greatest horse to ever set foot on a track...period! All you had to do was see him run to appreciate him...there was no PR campaign, no smoke and mirrors, just pure talent! I won't post in this thread again as folks have their minds made up one way or another...I've given the stats hundreds of times, broken down every race...some folks have an argument for every fact...so be it! He ran a 2:24 in the Belmont...to say he wasn't a 2:24 horse is ridiculous...he ran the race! And Sham was fully capable of running a 2:25...but not after going under 1:10 for 6f...pace makes the race and Secretariat's pace that day reduced the others to also-rans...name me a horse that could have run with him that day? Sham would run the likes Point Given, Sunday Silence and the other so-called "better" horses into oblivion, only Tiznow of the recent runners would possibly best him, and he would have to catch him!

I agree with you about Secretariat. Nice to see the facts to back up your position.
I don't know where this thread made a turn towards the rail, and you can correct me if I'm mistaken, but isn't the title of this thread "Most talented 3yo since the 90's"? Hmmmm.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

I agree with you about Secretariat. Nice to see the facts to back up your position.
I don't know where this thread made a turn towards the rail, and you can correct me if I'm mistaken, but isn't the title of this thread "Most talented 3yo since the 90's"? Hmmmm.

Yep, always has to get off topic, doesn't it? I still stand by my two choices though... Holy Bull and Point Given.

[JJP]

Talent is meaningless. Its all about accomplishment. To many, Easy Goer was more "talented" than Sunday Silence. Yet SS accomplished more. People are obsessed with raw talent. The QB who can air it out 70 yards, the MLB pitcher who can hit the high 90s on the radar gun, the WR with 4.3 speed. But what good is it if the results aren't there?

[sham]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

I've debated this for...well, since 1973. Secretariat was the greatest horse to ever set foot on a track...period! All you had to do was see him run to appreciate him...there was no PR campaign, no smoke and mirrors, just pure talent! I won't post in this thread again as folks have their minds made up one way or another...I've given the stats hundreds of times, broken down every race...some folks have an argument for every fact...so be it! He ran a 2:24 in the Belmont...to say he wasn't a 2:24 horse is ridiculous...he ran the race! And Sham was fully capable of running a 2:25...but not after going under 1:10 for 6f...pace makes the race and Secretariat's pace that day reduced the others to also-rans...name me a horse that could have run with him that day? Sham would run the likes Point Given, Sunday Silence and the other so-called "better" horses into oblivion, only Tiznow of the recent runners would possibly best him, and he would have to catch him!

You get only agreement from me. Secretariat also grades-out as the best 3yo in every analysis I have done. His closest competitor is Man O'War and they were pretty much even in my opinion. My data base is limited to only horses that raced in the US since 1900. I have no idea how the horses stack-up Euros vs. US for example. The best female...Ruffian...and it's not even close as to 2nd best among the ladies. I also don't compare 3yos to the 4&up group. Elders have a definite advantage...about 4 lengths on average at a reference distance of 10fl. Many, when comparing the past greats, forget about this fact. Secretariat and Spectacular Bid is a good case in point. Those that consider Bid to be better than Red are remembering the 4yo Bid and the 3yo Secretariat. As 3yo to 3yo, Secretariat ran several lengths faster than Bid on average. As to the chances that Secretariat would have improved had he raced as a 4yo?...It works out like this. 70% of horses that go on to race as elders improve their average run times. Of the remaining 30%, many have injury related issues. This means that the odds that Red would improve is greater than 70 percent. Actually, he would have needed no improvement to defeat all but a very small number of the very best past greats. I apologize for getting off topic.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by sham

You get only agreement from me. Secretariat also grades-out as the best 3yo in every analysis I have done. His closest competitor is Man O'War and they were pretty much even in my opinion. My data base is limited to only horses that raced in the US since 1900. I have no idea how the horses stack-up Euros vs. US for example. The best female...Ruffian...and it's not even close as to 2nd best among the ladies. I also don't compare 3yos to the 4&up group. Elders have a definite advantage...about 4 lengths on average at a reference distance of 10fl. Many, when comparing the past greats, forget about this fact. Secretariat and Spectacular Bid is a good case in point. Those that consider Bid to be better than Red are remembering the 4yo Bid and the 3yo Secretariat. As 3yo to 3yo, Secretariat ran several lengths faster than Bid on average. As to the chances that Secretariat would have improved had he raced as a 4yo?...It works out like this. 70% of horses that go on to race as elders improve their average run times. Of the remaining 30%, many have injury related issues. This means that the odds that Red would improve is greater than 70 percent. Actually, he would have needed no improvement to defeat all but a very small number of the very best past greats. I apologize for getting off topic.

Not to belabor the "off topic"...

Distance Man'O War Secretariat Margin

6 furlongs 1:11 1/5 1:09 4/5 +7 lengths
1 mile 1:35 4/5 1:33 2/5 +12 lengths
1 1/16 1:44 4/5 1:42 4/5 +10 lengths
1 1/8 1:49 1/5 1:45 2/5 +19 lengths
1 3/16 1:56 3/5 1:53 2/5 +16 lengths
1 ¼ 2:01 4/5 1:59 flat +14 lengths
1 3/8 2:14 1/5 2:12 1/5 +10 lengths
1 1/2 2:28 4/5 2:24 flat +24 lengths
1 5/8 2:40 4/5 2:37 4/5

Now back to "The most talented 3yo since the 90's"

[boswd]

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

Not to belabor the "off topic"...

Distance Man'O War Secretariat Margin

6 furlongs 1:11 1/5 1:09 4/5 +7 lengths
1 mile 1:35 4/5 1:33 2/5 +12 lengths
1 1/16 1:44 4/5 1:42 4/5 +10 lengths
1 1/8 1:49 1/5 1:45 2/5 +19 lengths
1 3/16 1:56 3/5 1:53 2/5 +16 lengths
1 ¼ 2:01 4/5 1:59 flat +14 lengths
1 3/8 2:14 1/5 2:12 1/5 +10 lengths
1 1/2 2:28 4/5 2:24 flat +24 lengths
1 5/8 2:40 4/5 2:37 4/5

Now back to "The most talented 3yo since the 90's"

Point Given

Raw talent: Holy Bull; Accomplishment: A.P. Indy; Potential: Bernardini

[sham]

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

Not to belabor the "off topic"...

Distance Man'O War Secretariat Margin

6 furlongs 1:11 1/5 1:09 4/5 +7 lengths
1 mile 1:35 4/5 1:33 2/5 +12 lengths
1 1/16 1:44 4/5 1:42 4/5 +10 lengths
1 1/8 1:49 1/5 1:45 2/5 +19 lengths
1 3/16 1:56 3/5 1:53 2/5 +16 lengths
1 ¼ 2:01 4/5 1:59 flat +14 lengths
1 3/8 2:14 1/5 2:12 1/5 +10 lengths
1 1/2 2:28 4/5 2:24 flat +24 lengths
1 5/8 2:40 4/5 2:37 4/5

Now back to "The most talented 3yo since the 90's"

You were just joking with this post...weren't you?

[repent]

Originally Posted by sham

Perhaps you could share with us ten 3yos that were better than Secretariat.

Diamond Fury
Kings Consul
Tasmanian Tiger
Leading the Parade
Alajwad
Grand Reward
Fusaichi Samarai
whywhywhy
Line of Departure
Van Nistelrooy(both of them)

all horses who exceled on the track and lived up to all the hype.

[sham]

Originally Posted by repent

Diamond Fury
Kings Consul
Tasmanian Tiger
Leading the Parade
Alajwad
Grand Reward
Fusaichi Samarai
whywhywhy
Line of Departure
Van Nistelrooy(both of them)

all horses who exceled on the track and lived up to all the hype.

Well yeah...that ten! No fair using such celebrateded "claimers". Besides this obvious group, can you name ten 3yos better than Secretariat?

[repent]

Originally Posted by sham

Well yeah...that ten! No fair using such celebrateded "claimers". Besides this obvious group, can you name ten 3yos better than Secretariat?

well,
if you are just talking accomplishment during the running of their 3YO year,
then, no-
there probably are not 10 better US dirt horses than Secretariat.

when you say "better", I think accomplishment.

I have no idea.
I cant even say with complete confidence who is "better" btwn 2 horses from the same crop like Bernardini and Discreet Cat,
so I have no freaking clue who is better btwn Secretariat and a horse that ran 30 years earlier like Citation or Coaltown.


Repent

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by repent

well,
if you are just talking accomplishment during the running of their 3YO year,
then, no-
there probably are not 10 better US dirt horses than Secretariat.

when you say "better", I think accomplishment.

I have no idea.
I cant even say with complete confidence who is "better" btwn 2 horses from the same crop like Bernardini and Discreet Cat,
so I have no freaking clue who is better btwn Secretariat and a horse that ran 30 years earlier like Citation or Coaltown.


Repent

interesting to note tho that citation beat the previous years horse of the year when he was three--before running in and winning the tc. when's the last time someone saw a 3 yo face older in the early spring?? or face them early and beat them!

[repent]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

This is pretty funny. I have a feeling you'll be adding The Green Monkey to this list as well. Although at least Grand Reward won the Oaklawn Handicap.

lol,
yeah he probably did not deserve to be on the list.
I just thought he was really overhyped.
hell, I think Good Reward is reallu overhyped for that matter.
never liked either one of them.

is the Green Monkey ever going to run?
I heard on TVG that he was going to run at Belmont.
was that put off?


Repent

[repent]

Originally Posted by merasmag

but i'll sell em to you for a dolla, the trib is restructuring as of this am, (maybe they do have a prayer)
i have been a sox fan for 2 full years now (minus 9 days)-i could take the cubs losing but when they dumped steve stone that was IT, the sox announcers have always sucked, so that's par for the course, and i am used to losing so i am not as depressed as most sox fans
and blockheadd is NOT awesome, unless u mean like a trainwreck
try to stay out of trouble- i gotta try to crash, fox did me a favor and switched the game to noon ...i hope i can be at the otb in time to bet half my profits on lawyer ron-goodite and sweet dreams

lol,
I hate the Trib.

well I just meant that he is a little out of his mind which is kind of cool.
I dont know the guy really and I really dont care what he thinks of ppl of different skin color dating.
now if he is one of those polytrack proponents, then I would have a problem with him.lol

Repent

[repent]

goodnight Mera.
thanks for staying up so I have someone to tallk to on here.

Ive got to make some time and get on here during the day more often when more ppl are on.


Repent

[Assttodixie]

Originally Posted by Dixie Porter

Most overated horse in the history of the game. Best PR campaign in the history of the game.

You'd be amazed at the people that bought into those fairy tales after every loss (5 in all).

That is one horse I really wished would have kept on racing. Nice job by Penny with IRS BS.

Boss-

Once again, your uncanny knack for horses will dumbfound and confuse these MORONS.

They have no idea like you do that Big Red was on Roids. You have firsthand knowledge that Victor Conte's grandpa was sending the "clear" and the "cream" to Penny and the gang when Barry Bonds was still in diapers. Heck, "red beans" were named in honor of the big horse.

The time in the belmont that still stands today? Mirage!

Derby record that still stands today? Mirage as well!

Unofficial preakness record? Phony!

Marlboro cup? bad day by all the other horses!

Yes, just a great media campaign for an overrated horse.