Jerry Brown's letter to TDN on HOY discussion

[Merlinsky]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Saying that Macho again was a "good horse at saratoga this summer" seems like you are implying that Macho Again particularly relishes that track. In fact, Bullsbay and Macho Again both had done very well previously at churchill downs.

So what happened to the second and third place finishers of the woodward in this race?

That didn't seem to be what Travis was implying at all. It in no way means Macho Again's only good at Saratoga. What I believe several of us are saying (including Steve if I'm remembering my At the Races well--please correct me if I'm wrong Steve) is that at this time in their seasons, Macho Again and Bullsbay had form that was strong and moving up. RA caught them when they'd be most primed this year to give her a tussle and she still beat them.

Of course, as usual, Haskin says it best: http://cs.bloodhorse.com/blogs/horse...he-rescue.aspx

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Merlinsky

That didn't seem to be what Travis was implying at all. It in no way means Macho Again's only good at Saratoga. What I believe several of us are saying (including Steve if I'm remembering my At the Races well--please correct me if I'm wrong Steve) is that at this time in their seasons, Macho Again and Bullsbay had form that was strong and moving up. RA caught them when they'd be most primed this year to give her a tussle and she still beat them.

Of course, as usual, Haskin says it best: http://cs.bloodhorse.com/blogs/horse...he-rescue.aspx

So the trainers of Macho Again and Bullsbay had their respective charges primed for their best efforts in...The woodward? Really? No disrespect Merlinsky but thats laughable.

Lets face it-neither horse is very good. We want to heap huge praise on the filly for holding these two horses off and she deserves a measure of credit for doing that. Lets not pretend though that those horses are something they arent. Yesterday seemed to back up that point.

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

So the trainers of Macho Again and Bullsbay had their respective charges primed for their best efforts in...The woodward? Really? No disrespect Merlinsky but thats laughable.

Lets face it-neither horse is very good. We want to heap huge praise on the filly for holding these two horses off and she deserves a measure of credit for doing that. Lets not pretend though that those horses are something they arent. Yesterday seemed to back up that point.

So they're not good because they lost yesterday?

Macho Again had a very good year by today's standards. He won a Grade II, a Grade I, and placed in two other GIs. Bullsbay had a good year himself.

Whether Macho Again or Bullsbay's form was off yesterday probably had little to do with whether their trainer's had their horses primed. Don't give Macho's trainer that much credit. They were both in career-best form this summer and Rachel faced them at the top of their game. If you want to argue that the top of their game is not much then that's a different issue.

NT

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

So they're not good because they lost yesterday?

Macho Again had a very good year by today's standards. He won a Grade II, a Grade I, and placed in two other GIs. Bullsbay had a good year himself.

Whether Macho Again or Bullsbay's form was off yesterday probably had little to do with whether their trainer's had their horses primed. Don't give Macho's trainer that much credit. They were both in career-best form this summer and Rachel faced them at the top of their game. If you want to argue that the top of their game is not much then that's a different issue.

NT

And thats basically what i mean. Those horses simply arent that good.

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

And thats basically what i mean. Those horses simply arent that good.

And that begs the question then who did Zenyatta beat that was that good in the Classic?

Gio Ponti- A turf horse who was able to transfer his form to synthetics but was well beaten in his last synthetic start prior to the BC.

Twice Over- Ditto GP without the prior synthetic stuff.

Summer Bird- Dirt horse.

Colonel John- Good horse? Not in my opinion.

Richard's Kid- A dirt joke who got good on synthetics but was coming off a loss to a bad B-list Euro.

Awesome Gem- Dirt horse and a mediocre one at that.

Regal Ransom- Dirt horse.

Mine That Bird- Dirt horse who particularly hated the Pro-Ride and was off form on BC day.

Rip Van Winkle- Turf horse who had feet problems that reared their ugly head prior to the BC.

Einstein- Good horse who was plagued by a bad trip.

Girolamo- Dirt horse.

The only other horse that Zenyatta beat this year that's even worth discussing is Life Is Sweet, who benefited from a tremendous pace setup on her favorite track to win the Distaff.

NT

[Smooth Operator]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

And that begs the question then who did Zenyatta beat that was that good in the Classic?

Twice Over- Ditto GP without the prior synthetic stuff.

LOL ... Do you remember what happened in last year's BCC, NTamm1215 … when those two Euros came to Southern Cal and made Curlin look like some overmatched allowance runner?

Twice Over took a 10f G1 in Britain this season ... and beat BCC champion Raven's Pass in a G3 mile last season.

This was a VERY classy 4yo colt which ran his race at Anita ... but still was no match for Z.

This alone speaks volumes about her ability.

And Rip Van Winkle looks like the classic Euro miler, but he still managed to get within a length of superhorse Sea The Stars in a 10f G1 this season.


At any rate, that BCC field was FAR better than anything RA faced this year.


To deny the great undefeated champion mare Zenyatta a HotY award would be an absolute disgrace for the sport, in my opinion...

[Merlinsky]

Nick Zito weighs in: http://blog.timesunion.com/horseraci...lexandra/3700/

Of course the calls of 'he's a NY trainer, and we all know he hates synthetic, of course he's biased' are bound to come in. Pretend I already pointed that out (oops no need to pretend) and proceed onward in the discussion.

I can't find where someone mentioned the DRF poll on HOY and said Z was ahead by a 2 to 1 margin. I checked it out again having voted awhile back and frankly given that it's a popular poll with easy-to-do ballot stuffing means any fan with time on their hands (apparently a lot of us) can dig in and puff up whoever they want. A NY Times poll had RA ahead awhile back (it's got RA with 69%). I'm glad this is not by popular vote cuz sorry, Barbaro didn't technically deserve HOY and you know he'd have gotten it. Maybe a 'fan favorite' Eclipse could alleviate some of that pressure.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by Smooth Operator

LOL ... Do you remember what happened in last year's BCC, NTamm1215 … when those two Euros came to Southern Cal and made Curlin look like some overmatched allowance runner?

Twice Over took a 10f G1 in Britain this season ... and beat BCC champion Raven's Pass in a G3 mile last season.

This was a VERY classy 4yo colt which ran his race at Anita ... but still was no match for Z.

This alone speaks volumes about her ability.

And Rip Van Winkle looks like the classic Euro miler, but he still managed to get within a length of superhorse Sea The Stars in a 10f G1 this season.


At any rate, that BCC field was FAR better than anything RA faced this year.


To deny the great undefeated champion mare Zenyatta a HotY award would be an absolute disgrace for the sport, in my opinion...

Yes, obviously Rip Van Winkle ran the exact same race in the BCClassic as he did against Sea The Stars earlier this year.

And it is so hilarious that Einstein flatters Zenyatta now? I mean the BCClassic was obviously Einsteins best race Evah.

I just dont get it!

[Merlinsky]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

So the trainers of Macho Again and Bullsbay had their respective charges primed for their best efforts in...The woodward? Really? No disrespect Merlinsky but thats laughable.

Lets face it-neither horse is very good. We want to heap huge praise on the filly for holding these two horses off and she deserves a measure of credit for doing that. Lets not pretend though that those horses are something they arent. Yesterday seemed to back up that point.

Their trainers might not've done it on purpose, but that's when the horses were at their best. Not everyone expects to win the BCC so they look at another G1, or maybe they think it'll get even better and the horse isn't even primed yet. Looking back on their year it was obvious this was their top. As I said, Haskin seemed to think it too so I don't feel particularly silly in my assertion. Nobody said they're Secretariat, but they were feeling their best and that best was dangerous against the average or even above average 3yo filly. RA was obviously much better than that.