Jerry Brown's letter to TDN on HOY discussion

[Roc525]

I find it ridiculous that anyone would think that Z's BCC win will do anything to greatly influence those who "have only the mildest of interest in whether horse racing continues to exist". To be fair, I also don't believe any of Rachel's big wins have greatly influenced that group. The great racing memories this filly and mare have provided us with this year will be remembered only by those of us who follow this sport week by week, year by year. The sad truth is, these moments and memories will fade from the minds of those with only a mild interest.

That being said, and as long as this is actually being used as an argument for Z getting HOY, the fact is the same argument can be made concerning Rachel. One could argue that even after Z's big win, Rachel is still the one that has had more of an impact concerning this "hugely important sphere". While most residing in the West will shout "bias!" from the rooftops, one needs only to look at the poll being conducted by the NY Times concerning HOY.

As it stands now, Rachel is in the lead over Zenyatta 69% to 31%. The poll up to this point has accumulated a total of 2,707 votes. Unless each of these votes has been cast by hardcore racing fans or experts, which we all know isn't the case, I think we can agree that Rachel has also greatly influenced even the mildest of players. So let's call it a draw concerning this type of nonsense and just get back to the facts. The one's that all support Rachel for HOY.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Roc525

While most residing in the West will shout "bias!" from the rooftops, one needs only to look at the poll being conducted by the NY Times concerning HOY.

As it stands now, Rachel is in the lead over Zenyatta 69% to 31%. The poll up to this point has accumulated a total of 2,707 votes.

Hah! Nice try.

You're telling me I'm supposed to take your statistics at face value when the poll was conducted by the NEW YORK Times!?!

!BIAS!

Let's see what the Pasadena Star has to say about all this.

[Merlinsky]

Seriously? Joe Drape's NY Times Counterpoint about HOY lists her floppy eared love of running as one of two things to think about when considering the big beautiful Zenyatta. I can give several things in Rachel's favor before I get to the 'she's so pretty' argument. Not that it doesn't enrapture me to behold Zenyatta, but c'mon. When is that a qualification for HOY? This is not Westminster Best in Show judging. Who wants it more and struts the best is not what HOY is about.

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

This is begging for a picture of Kanye interrupting Zenyatta.

"Yo, Zenyatta, I'm happy for you and Imma let you finish but Beyonce had one of the best rides by Mike Smith of all time."

Originally Posted by miraja2

The reason is because some people have elevated the Breeders' Cup to an absolutely absurd status. These people seem to believe that the BCC counts for more than the Oaks, Preakness, Haskell, and Woodward put together simply because somebody put the idiotic title "World Championships" after one particular weekend of racing. It is a complete farce.

Ah but it was a farce on polytrack. Surely as compared to other farces in American racing, those on dirt take precedent.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by Merlinsky

Seriously? Joe Drape's NY Times Counterpoint about HOY lists her floppy eared love of running as one of two things to think about when considering the big beautiful Zenyatta. I can give several things in Rachel's favor before I get to the 'she's so pretty' argument. Not that it doesn't enrapture me to behold Zenyatta, but c'mon. When is that a qualification for HOY? This is not Westminster Best in Show judging. Who wants it more and struts the best is not what HOY is about.

Funny you mention that, because the first person I told about the NY Times thing, I was laughing about that when explaining it.

I was like "remember how I explained how one camp wants to talk about races and stats, and the other wants to talk about crying and feeling good inside, yea....'and she just has genuine star power,' is one of the things allegedly in her corner for HOY."

It's like the further we get into the "debate," the more crazy the diversions become. In a couple weeks, having exhausted anything bordering on a reasonable analysis, people will be talking about how Rachel's unwillingness to dance before the race to entertain the fans is a serious concern when thinking about HOY voting.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

Funny you mention that, because the first person I told about the NY Times thing, I was laughing about that when explaining it.

I was like "remember how I explained how one camp wants to talk about races and stats, and the other wants to talk about crying and feeling good inside, yea....'and she just has genuine star power,' is one of the things allegedly in her corner for HOY."

It's like the further we get into the "debate," the more crazy the diversions become. In a couple weeks, having exhausted anything bordering on a reasonable analysis, people will be talking about how Rachel's unwillingness to dance before the race to entertain the fans is a serious concern when thinking about HOY voting.

Rachel has her own kind of dance - with devastating results (go to 1:44):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8kRDFNFIl8

[Merlinsky]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

Rachel has her own kind of dance - with devastating results (go to 1:44):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8kRDFNFIl8

Just got through watching that race. No way to avoid having to pick your jaw up off the floor after that one.

[10 pnt move up]

Here are the grade 1/2 races that the horses Zenyatta has beaten won this year since JB says Zenyatta beat up on Anashits creation, the favorite argument to why Zenyatta just is a notch below

Breeders Cup Distaff
Kentucky Derby
Travers
Santa Anita Derby
Sham Stakes
Jockey Club Gold Cup
Irish Champion Stakes
Pacific Classic
Arlignton Million
Man O War
Manhatten
Kilroe
Santa Anita Handicap
Clark
Queen Elizibeth
Sussex Stakes
Super Derby
Amersterdam
Fountain of Youth
Florida Derby
Hawthorne Gold Cup
El Encino
La Canada
Santa Margarita

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

Here are the grade 1/2 races that the horses Zenyatta has beaten won this year since JB says Zenyatta beat up on Anashits creation, the favorite argument to why Zenyatta just is a notch below
Breeders Cup Distaff
Kentucky Derby
Travers
Santa Anita Derby
Sham Stakes
Jockey Club Gold Cup
Irish Champion Stakes
Pacific Classic
Arlignton Million
Man O War
Manhatten
Kilroe
Santa Anita Handicap
Clark
Queen Elizibeth
Sussex Stakes
Super Derby
Amersterdam
Fountain of Youth
Florida Derby
Hawthorne Gold Cup
El Encino
La Canada
Santa Margarita

Wow. That's a terribly inaccurate list.

Interesting that you include stakes that Quality Road won, Sea the Stars won, that horses won in years past while claiming that it was this year, a Grade III already disqualified by the previous problem, and a race that hasn't even been run yet in 2009.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

Here are the grade 1/2 races that the horses Zenyatta has beaten won this year since JB says Zenyatta beat up on Anashits creation, the favorite argument to why Zenyatta just is a notch below

Breeders Cup Distaff
Kentucky Derby
Travers
Santa Anita Derby
Sham Stakes
Jockey Club Gold Cup
Irish Champion Stakes
Pacific Classic
Arlignton Million
Man O War
Manhatten
Kilroe
Santa Anita Handicap
Clark
Queen Elizibeth
Sussex Stakes
Super Derby
Amersterdam
Fountain of Youth
Florida Derby
Hawthorne Gold Cup
El Encino
La Canada
Santa Margarita

for starters, exactly when did zenyatta face pioneerof the nile, or the pamplemousse? and i guess it's the clark brian was asking about, since there is no '09 winner as yet.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by Danzig

for starters, exactly when did zenyatta face pioneerof the nile, or the pamplemousse? and i guess it's the clark brian was asking about, since there is no '09 winner as yet.

sorry, included Colonal Johns three year old wins, guess they did not happen in Brown's argument.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by Danzig

for starters, exactly when did zenyatta face pioneerof the nile, or the pamplemousse? and i guess it's the clark brian was asking about, since there is no '09 winner as yet.

Actually 7 of those 24 listed are no good -- totally shoddy work, and yet another "throw it at the wall and see what sticks/who is paying attention" type argument.

But she still got that dirty head past Anabaa's Creation. And that counts for something as the winner of.....a second-level allowance.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

Here are the grade 1/2 races that the horses Zenyatta has beaten won this year since JB says Zenyatta beat up on Anashits creation, the favorite argument to why Zenyatta just is a notch below

Breeders Cup Distaff
Kentucky Derby
Travers
Santa Anita Derby no
Sham Stakes no
Jockey Club Gold Cup
Irish Champion Stakes no
Pacific Classic
Arlignton Million
Man O War
Manhatten
Kilroe
Santa Anita Handicap
Clark no
Queen Elizibeth
Sussex Stakes
Super Derby
Amersterdam no
Fountain of Youth no
Florida Derby no
Hawthorne Gold Cup
El Encino
La Canada
Santa Margarita

...

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

Rachel has her own kind of dance - with devastating results (go to 1:44):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8kRDFNFIl8

Oh wow. Wow. That video is awesome.

[citycat]

Good read in the Bloodhorse on the subject by Steve Haskins. Interesting in that the bloodhorse poll is running almost exactly opposite the NY Times poll with about 60% Zenyatta

[Clip-Clop]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

Rachel has her own kind of dance - with devastating results (go to 1:44):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8kRDFNFIl8

I like the splits best of all, a mile in 1:33 at BEL with Borel standing up, unreal. 1:34 in the Haskell. She is amazing.

[anamulla]

Let's do some poetry

..God created Dirt
..God Created Grass
..Man created Plastic
..I'm still believe in God..

[Handicappy]

Originally Posted by sammy

Forget the surfaces. This is a no-brainer. R.A. is the better horse and she is H.O.Y. Period.

OH, well thanks for clearing this up!

[Smooth Operator]

Originally Posted by sammy

Forget the surfaces. This is a no-brainer. R.A. is the better horse and she is H.O.Y. Period.

It's a no-brainer ... for people who are high on crack.

Granted, enough of the lemmings will likely vote for the Alexander filly to put her over the top for the HotY award … but there's no doubt as to which was the superior animal this year.


Does anyone actually believe that that 3yo filly could've held off the 5yo monster mare in a two-turn 9 or 10f affair on a fair dirt surface???

If so, you really need to step away from Jersey boy's bong for a while…

[letswastemoney]

Originally Posted by Smooth Operator

It's a no-brainer ... for people who are high on crack.

Granted, enough of the lemmings will likely vote for the Alexander filly to put her over the top for the HotY award … but there's no doubt as to which was the superior animal this year.


Does anyone actually believe that that 3yo filly could've held off the 5yo monster mare in a two-turn 9 or 10f affair on a fair dirt surface???

If so, you really need to step away from Jersey boy's bong for a while…

I don't understand why people just assume what would happen. A dirt surface would play more favorably to Rachel's running style, therefore she'd have a better chance. Not saying for sure she'd win, but it would be a close race.

People are letting their emotions get away with Zenyatta's Classic win. She's not invincible. Maybe she can run 112 beyers, but Rachel has proven herself capable of those numbers on a dirt track already.

[Smooth Operator]

When healthy horses are held out of world-class championship events we have no choice but to make assumptions, letswastemoney.


Unfortunately, despite her impressive achievements, RA never proved that she could handle a horse of Z's quality … or that she could stay the classic 10f distance.

Z was older and stronger and likely would've gotten to RA … even on a dry dirt surface, imo.

And I don't believe people are "letting their emotions get away" with Z. Her Classic was a powerful, impressive performance by any objective measure.