11/11 ATR: The Great HOTY Debate

[CSC]

Originally Posted by letswastemoney

The definition of horse of the year is already in the title....

"the year" not "the day"

Again, I think this would be great and all had RA raced past Sept 5, and I know I will be reminded of her starting early in the year, her campaign was super up until that point, but in retrospect one would have to wonder which race would we have rather seen her in, The Martha Washington or the BC Classic.

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by CSC

Again, I think this would be great and all had RA raced past Sept 5, and I know I will be reminded of her starting early in the year, her campaign was super up until that point, but in retrospect one would have to wonder which race would we have rather seen her in, The Martha Washington or the BC Classic.

February 16, March 14, April 5, May 1, May 16, June 27, August 2, September 5, those were the dates of her races. I have no idea what you're trying to say and am completely unable to understand why her not running after 9/5 is such a problem to you. It is almost as ridiculous as someone saying Zenyatta can't win HOTY because she didn't start before 5/23.

NT

[slotdirt]

You know, who did win that nonsense race on Derby day for which Zenyatta was entered and scratched?

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

You know, who did win that nonsense race on Derby day for which Zenyatta was entered and scratched?

Miss Isella over One Caroline.

NT

[slotdirt]

Ah, that's right. Good thing Zenyatta didn't run there.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

Ah, that's right. Good thing Zenyatta didn't run there.

actually.. I seem to remember a big stretch dual and a very fast finishing time. Could be misremembering though.

[slotdirt]

I remember that the weather sucked and I didn't have the winner, mostly.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

February 16, March 14, April 5, May 1, May 16, June 27, August 2, September 5, those were the dates of her races. I have no idea what you're trying to say and am completely unable to understand why her not running after 9/5 is such a problem to you. It is almost as ridiculous as someone saying Zenyatta can't win HOTY because she didn't start before 5/23.

NT

Basically what I am saying is we wouldn't be debating HOY right now had she raced in the BC, off the top of my head only a handful of horses have won HOY without racing in the BC the last 20 yrs, Point Given and Mineshaft come to mind, and this was not of their choosing due to injuries, if HOY wasn't in consideration I think none of us would care why she didn't show up on the biggest day of racing. That's the crux of it, we all respect both horses, but all of us have our reasons why one is thought of higher than the other, and right now it looks split right down the middle.

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by CSC

Basically what I am saying is we wouldn't be debating HOY right now had she raced in the BC, off the top of my head only a handful of horses have won HOY without racing in the BC the last 20 yrs, Point Given and Mineshaft come to mind, and this was not of their choosing due to injuries, if HOY wasn't in consideration I think none of us would care why she didn't show up on the biggest day of racing. That's the crux of it, we all respect both horses, but all of us have our reasons why one is thought of higher than the other, and right now it looks split right down the middle.

You're forgetting something, based on what she had done, Rachel really didn't have to run again. After 9/5 we all knew it was going to take something extraordinary to displace her at the top of the HOTY heap. The difference now is that you think that happened. I don't.

NT

[CSC]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

You're forgetting something, based on what she had done, Rachel really didn't have to run again. After 9/5 we all knew it was going to take something extraordinary to displace her at the top of the HOTY heap. The difference now is that you think that happened. I don't.

NT

And that's unfortunate because you could probably stage a pay per view event for a RA / Zen matchup, something we can now only speculate on.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by CSC

Again, I think this would be great and all had RA raced past Sept 5, and I know I will be reminded of her starting early in the year, her campaign was super up until that point, but in retrospect one would have to wonder which race would we have rather seen her in, The Martha Washington or the BC Classic.

If Jess didnt buy the horse she would have raced in the Coaching Club Alabama and perhaps the Distaff and most likely would be pointing for a date with AP INDY in Feb 2010

[CSC]

Originally Posted by freddymo

If Jess didnt buy the horse she would have raced in the Coaching Club Alabama and perhaps the Distaff and most likely would be pointing for a date with AP INDY in Feb 2010

We don't know that for sure, she may not have had the identical campaign, any Trainer, owner who gets in this game wouldn't pass on some salty races, look at Summer Bird's connections. I'm not sure if JJ is getting more credit than he truly deserves.

[Revidere]

Truth be told Horse of the Year hasn't meant that much since they gave it to John Henry over Slew O'Gold in 1984.

I'm just glad we were able to see both of them run. Each race escalated the "WOW" factor. Now I need Rachel to do it again in 2010.

Before that we need to see Stardom Bound in the Gazelle!

The tale of the tape:

Rachel


Zenyatta

[philcski]

Originally Posted by CSC

Again, I think this would be great and all had RA raced past Sept 5, and I know I will be reminded of her starting early in the year, her campaign was super up until that point, but in retrospect one would have to wonder which race would we have rather seen her in, The Martha Washington or the BC Classic.

Because the objective at that point was the Kentucky Oaks?

At the start of the year she was the prohibitive favorite for the KY Oaks. No one in their right mind would think she would have gone into the end of the season as the Breeders Cup CLASSIC favorite. The objective at the time was completed... in record fashion, no less. Her KY Oaks may have been the best performance I've ever seen at Churchill Downs, and that's saying a LOT.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by philcski

At the start of the year she was the prohibitive favorite for the KY Oaks.

She wasn't favorite.

Stardom Bound was favored over her - and than Justwhistledixie after that.

She should have been a prohibitive favorite though.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

She wasn't favorite.

Stardom Bound was favored over her - and than Justwhistledixie after that.

She should have been a prohibitive favorite though.

OK, people with half a brain thought she was the favorite over Stardom Bound.

Justwhistledixie didn't really show up onto the scene until February in the Davona Dale... she started her 2009 campaign on the AQU inner track in a 6F mini-stake.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by philcski

Justwhistledixie didn't really show up onto the scene until February in the Davona Dale... she started her 2009 campaign on the AQU inner track in a 6F mini-stake.

JWD was the favorite over RA in the future wagering for the KY Oaks.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

JWD was the favorite over RA in the future wagering for the KY Oaks.

Correct... however that pool was in March. Granted, it was only by $1500, but I still don't know why.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by philcski

Because the objective at that point was the Kentucky Oaks?

At the start of the year she was the prohibitive favorite for the KY Oaks. No one in their right mind would think she would have gone into the end of the season as the Breeders Cup CLASSIC favorite. The objective at the time was completed... in record fashion, no less. Her KY Oaks may have been the best performance I've ever seen at Churchill Downs, and that's saying a LOT.

I want to re-address this point.

Yes you made a good valid point Phil, however I think it's also worth mentioning these 2 races didn't take a whole lot out of her, this was a reason what many of her backers brought up when they reference she had a long year so it was perfectly alright stopping on Sept 5, if this is the case then what about the other horses that run and prep for the derby and show up in the BC yearly.

So yes you made a good point, but it isn't a valid reason why she didn't run in the BC.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by CSC

I want to re-address this point.

Yes you made a good valid point Phil, however I think it's also worth mentioning these 2 races didn't take a whole lot out of her, this was a reason what many of her backers brought up when they reference she had a long year so it was perfectly alright stopping on Sept 5, if this is the case then what about the other horses that run and prep for the derby and show up in the BC yearly.

So yes you made a good point, but it isn't a valid reason why she didn't run in the BC.

not sure why you cant process this thought so we'll say it for the one millionth time

The VALID reason.. and the reason since about May 7th when Jess Jackson bought her... that she didnt run in the Breeders Cup.. is that her owner said she would not run on artificial surfaces.

Why you cant understand that valid reason is beyond me.. especially since its been in the news for like 6 months now.

It would be one thing if Rachel was pointing to the BC the whole time and skipped a few days before because she didnt want to run against Z.

BUT EVER SINCE SHE WAS BOUGHT BY JJ SHE WAS NOT GOING TO RUN IN THE BREEDERS CUP!

there's your valid reason already! and its perfectly valid! look at how the dirt horses did in the BC!