Pletcher going to California

Originally Posted by Independent George

Now you've done it, Round Pen. You dare to disagree with the Almighty Oz (he's the Oracle, the Predictor of the Future). If he tells you that Todd Pletcher (I wrote his last name for YOUR sake, since the Oz only needs first names) will have more horses stabled at Aqueduct this winter than Gulfstream, take it to the bank; even though it flies in the face of reality.

And don't fret the "needlepoint" remark. It's a subconscious reference to the time when Todd wouldn't accept the doilies he had knitted for him. He's been bummed ever since.

Boy George,
Lemme see if I can explain this so as not to offend you and your delicate views.
The arrival of the Gulfstream meet used to be one of the most anticipated happenings in the racing world for trainers, owners, jockeys, and bettors.
The weather was quite pleasant for those who were actually there, and for those who weren't, the racing quality and races for freshly turned 3YO's as well as the grass racing made for a nice change from the last two dreary months of the racing year.
Then things changed. The racing has been destroyed at Gulf, plain and simple. The incredible amount of claiming races, VERY cheap horses and non2 life claimers(which are even worse than the regular ones) have left most gamblers unhappy, and horsemen even unhappier.
This past year Valenzuela, Gomez, and Espinoza were millions and millions ahead of their East counterparts Velazquez, Prado, and Bejarano at March's end. The reason? Very simple, they were competing for purses which dwarfed their Gulf rivals.
When you offer primarily cheap purses and cheap claimers you ruin your whole product. Horses are stabled in South Florida at Gulf, Calder, Palm Beach Downs, Payson Park, Palm Meadows, and quite a few private training farms. The racing secretary has more horses to draw from than any racing secretary in the country at any place at any time of the year. Grass horses abound as do 3YO's looking to break their maidens and advance through allowance conditions.
Thats what makes the situation so inexcusable. Allowance races and Maiden Special Weights are as rare as unicorns and it impacts everyone there. Just this past winter trainers such as Mott and Albertrani were shipping to Tampa Bay with regularity so as to get their horses into a grass MSW race. Think about that!! Trainers with expensive horses willing to ship a great distance of ground and run for tiny purses simply because Gulf left them no options. Jockey agents, jockeys, trainers, and owners take a huge hit in income and revenue because there simply is a lack of purse money. Did Gulf think that there would never be a reaction to this? They do have a powerful Eats Coast winter time monopoly on grass racing and because of the weather, trainers with powerful barns want to be there so training doesn't get interrupted. So what does Gulf do? They take advantage of the monoploly at their expense. Just this past meet a 30 grand allowance race had both Bandini and Wanderin Boy in it!!! The few allowances and miaden races that they do run have small purses and you get the "joy" of catching fields that look like graded stakes races. Perhaps you don't realize this but trainers are trying to make payroll and not all owners are sheikhs who don't care about getting money back on their investments so long as they win.
The graded stakes races are to a large extent a joke. You may not realize this but the graded stakes committee has rules as far as purses go on graded races. 100 grand for grade 3, and 150 grand for grade 2. This doesnt mean that the tracks can't offer more money. And in most cases Gulf certainly chooses not to. This past winter a grade two was run(150 grand purse) which contained: Bushfire(future 3 time grade one winner), Wait A While(future grade one placed and grade one winner), Wonder Lady Anne l(future grade one winner) and Teammate(future twice grade one placed). The purse was a measly 150 grand, geez that just swell. There are also grade 3 grass races with 100 grand purses that contain Breeders Cup type fields. It's deplorable.
Bettors have come to make grass races, allowance races, MSW's and high priced claiming races their bread and butter for gambling. Some players may like cheap claimers but they are definitely outnumbered by those who don't.
Noone wins here, are you getting the point?
Everyone wants Gulf to return to its former glory, myself included. But when I posted this past summer that I had had conversations with a couple of major trainers, owners, and one jockey agent who all said they were considering going west with horses this winter, I wasn't making it up. WHy would I? I certainly didn't speak to Todd about that and found his move shocking at first glance.
But I can tell you to expect at least one major jockey and his agent to announce that they are heading west this year. These guys(owners, tariners, and jocks and their agents) simply cannot afford to give a three month head start to their counterparts and wait for Keeneland to come around in order to run for real purses and have opportunities to race in real races. Just last year Eibar Coa shockingly decided to stay up north at Aqueduct's inner track and he and his agent made a fortune and were near the top of the East coast jocks as far as money won at the end of March. Expect some more guys to stay up here in the winter this year as well and for trainers to keep large strings up at Aqueduct in addition to the the Gulf runners.
What Gulfstream has done is to exploit a monopoly at everyone elses expense. People will only take that so long, at some point they will react with changing venues to a partial or full extent.
When Round Pen countered that things would be different by posting a vague article about 1000 slot machines going in, I scoffed at the notion that there would be an immediate change at Gulfstream in substantial purse raising and quality of races being written. I find it hard to believe that the addition of 1000 machines this winter is going to have a very big impact, or any at all.
Fair Grounds will be open again this year and many guys will head there. Oaklawn's meets just keep getting better and better and California's Santa Anita meet has become the winter jewel by such a large margin over Gulf that its not even comparable.
Its going to take lots more than 1000 slot machines to change this and nowhere have I read(and I asked Round Pen to provide it if he could) any articles or statements by Gulfstream Park or its management that provide a statement that they will be raising purses or the quality of the condition book being written.

[Independent George]

Originally Posted by oracle80

Boy George,
Lemme see if I can explain this so as not to offend you and your delicate views.
The arrival of the Gulfstream meet used to be one of the most anticipated happenings in the racing world for trainers, owners, jockeys, and bettors.
The weather was quite pleasant for those who were actually there, and for those who weren't, the racing quality and races for freshly turned 3YO's as well as the grass racing made for a nice change from the last two dreary months of the racing year.
Then things changed. The racing has been destroyed at Gulf, plain and simple. The incredible amount of claiming races, VERY cheap horses and non2 life claimers(which are even worse than the regular ones) have left most gamblers unhappy, and horsemen even unhappier.
This past year Valenzuela, Gomez, and Espinoza were millions and millions ahead of their East counterparts Velazquez, Prado, and Bejarano at March's end. The reason? Very simple, they were competing for purses which dwarfed their Gulf rivals.
When you offer primarily cheap purses and cheap claimers you ruin your whole product. Horses are stabled in South Florida at Gulf, Calder, Palm Beach Downs, Payson Park, Palm Meadows, and quite a few private training farms. The racing secretary has more horses to draw from than any racing secretary in the country at any place at any time of the year. Grass horses abound as do 3YO's looking to break their maidens and advance through allowance conditions.
Thats what makes the situation so inexcusable. Allowance races and Maiden Special Weights are as rare as unicorns and it impacts everyone there. Just this past winter trainers such as Mott and Albertrani were shipping to Tampa Bay with regularity so as to get their horses into a grass MSW race. Think about that!! Trainers with expensive horses willing to ship a great distance of ground and run for tiny purses simply because Gulf left them no options. Jockey agents, jockeys, trainers, and owners take a huge hit in income and revenue because there simply is a lack of purse money. Did Gulf think that there would never be a reaction to this? They do have a powerful Eats Coast winter time monopoly on grass racing and because of the weather, trainers with powerful barns want to be there so training doesn't get interrupted. So what does Gulf do? They take advantage of the monoploly at their expense. Just this past meet a 30 grand allowance race had both Bandini and Wanderin Boy in it!!! The few allowances and miaden races that they do run have small purses and you get the "joy" of catching fields that look like graded stakes races. Perhaps you don't realize this but trainers are trying to make payroll and not all owners are sheikhs who don't care about getting money back on their investments so long as they win.
The graded stakes races are to a large extent a joke. You may not realize this but the graded stakes committee has rules as far as purses go on graded races. 100 grand for grade 3, and 150 grand for grade 2. This doesnt mean that the tracks can't offer more money. And in most cases Gulf certainly chooses not to. This past winter a grade two was run(150 grand purse) which contained: Bushfire(future 3 time grade one winner), Wait A While(future grade one placed and grade one winner), Wonder Lady Anne l(future grade one winner) and Teammate(future twice grade one placed). The purse was a measly 150 grand, geez that just swell. There are also grade 3 grass races with 100 grand purses that contain Breeders Cup type fields. It's deplorable.
Bettors have come to make grass races, allowance races, MSW's and high priced claiming races their bread and butter for gambling. Some players may like cheap claimers but they are definitely outnumbered by those who don't.
Noone wins here, are you getting the point?
Everyone wants Gulf to return to its former glory, myself included. But when I posted this past summer that I had had conversations with a couple of major trainers, owners, and one jockey agent who all said they were considering going west with horses this winter, I wasn't making it up. WHy would I? I certainly didn't speak to Todd about that and found his move shocking at first glance.
But I can tell you to expect at least one major jockey and his agent to announce that they are heading west this year. These guys(owners, tariners, and jocks and their agents) simply cannot afford to give a three month head start to their counterparts and wait for Keeneland to come around in order to run for real purses and have opportunities to race in real races. Just last year Eibar Coa shockingly decided to stay up north at Aqueduct's inner track and he and his agent made a fortune and were near the top of the East coast jocks as far as money won at the end of March. Expect some more guys to stay up here in the winter this year as well and for trainers to keep large strings up at Aqueduct in addition to the the Gulf runners.
What Gulfstream has done is to exploit a monopoly at everyone elses expense. People will only take that so long, at some point they will react with changing venues to a partial or full extent.
When Round Pen countered that things would be different by posting a vague article about 1000 slot machines going in, I scoffed at the notion that there would be an immediate change at Gulfstream in substantial purse raising and quality of races being written. I find it hard to believe that the addition of 1000 machines this winter is going to have a very big impact, or any at all.
Fair Grounds will be open again this year and many guys will head there. Oaklawn's meets just keep getting better and better and California's Santa Anita meet has become the winter jewel by such a large margin over Gulf that its not even comparable.
Its going to take lots more than 1000 slot machines to change this and nowhere have I read(and I asked Round Pen to provide it if he could) any articles or statements by Gulfstream Park or its management that provide a statement that they will be raising purses or the quality of the condition book being written.

I'll take the "Boy George"---kind of a compliment, since I haven't been referred to as a boy for many years.
Whatever, It's a moot point. Everything we all have said is speculation. I believe the same guys with the same kinds of horses and the premier jocks in the East will be at Gulfstream this year.You make this veiled statement about "knowing" that one major jock will move west this year.Anyone can say that and be almost assured of being right.Name the major jockey--put yourself out on that big limb.
You make some legitimate points but then you spoil it all by telling us Fairgrounds will draw "many guys" there. What guys? The usual suspects? I used to like to play Fairgrounds but, talk about a place whose product has deteriorated as far as the betting public is concerned and that's the place. They can't even get full fields for state-bred conditional claimers. Their daily cards two years ago were a disgrace.What trainer that usually goes to Gulfstream is going to go to Fairgrounds this year?
Peace, brother..........we shall see who's right; who's wrong, come January.

Originally Posted by Independent George

I'll take the "Boy George"---kind of a compliment, since I haven't been referred to as a boy for many years.
Whatever, It's a moot point. Everything we all have said is speculation. I believe the same guys with the same kinds of horses and the premier jocks in the East will be at Gulfstream this year.You make this veiled statement about "knowing" that one major jock will move west this year.Anyone can say that and be almost assured of being right.Name the major jockey--put yourself out on that big limb.
You make some legitimate points but then you spoil it all by telling us Fairgrounds will draw "many guys" there. What guys? The usual suspects? I used to like to play Fairgrounds but, talk about a place whose product has deteriorated as far as the betting public is concerned and that's the place. They can't even get full fields for state-bred conditional claimers. Their daily cards two years ago were a disgrace.What trainer that usually goes to Gulfstream is going to go to Fairgrounds this year?
Peace, brother..........we shall see who's right; who's wrong, come January.

Georgie,
I meant to respond to this yesterday but forgot to.
For some reason you and Round Pen took what i was saying in this thread as personal towards you. It really confused me as to why until I guessed that both of you were either involved in the business or lived in Florida.
Its not personal and wasn't intended to be.
I was all over Gulf for such a lousy job on our old board this past winter, long before I knew of either of you existing in the world.
I actually think Calder is a very underrated track, both from a betting standpoint and a racing standpoint as well. They have some spectacular days and were the first track to have the idea of what now is an accepted industry standard, to package a bunch of big stakes on one card.
The horseman there are underrated as well, not only the trainers, but all of the talented guys who run training centers and farms.
Of course everything is speculation, but I truly believe I will be proven right as far as my assertation that Gulf will again offer small purses and minimums for graded stakes, and awful weekday claiming filled cards. And trust me, I won't forget this thread. When Gulf starts you can count on me doing a daily thread on the purses and races being run.
I'm certainly hoping that Gulf turns it around some year as it has been such a vital part of racing on the East Coast for years and years.
As far as naming names Georgie, I rarely if ever do that. Its just not right. You don't go out to dinner with someone and repeat something that they have said on a message board while naming them. Surely you can appreciate this. And I said that this person said they were CONSIDERING going, not definitely going.

[SentToStud]

Originally Posted by oracle80

Georgie,
I meant to respond to this yesterday but forgot to.
For some reason you and Round Pen took what i was saying in this thread as personal towards you. It really confused me as to why until I guessed that both of you were either involved in the business or lived in Florida.
Its not personal and wasn't intended to be.
I was all over Gulf for such a lousy job on our old board this past winter, long before I knew of either of you existing in the world.
I actually think Calder is a very underrated track, both from a betting standpoint and a racing standpoint as well. They have some spectacular days and were the first track to have the idea of what now is an accepted industry standard, to package a bunch of big stakes on one card.
The horseman there are underrated as well, not only the trainers, but all of the talented guys who run training centers and farms.
Of course everything is speculation, but I truly believe I will be proven right as far as my assertation that Gulf will again offer small purses and minimums for graded stakes, and awful weekday claiming filled cards. And trust me, I won't forget this thread. When Gulf starts you can count on me doing a daily thread on the purses and races being run.
I'm certainly hoping that Gulf turns it around some year as it has been such a vital part of racing on the East Coast for years and years.
As far as naming names Georgie, I rarely if ever do that. Its just not right. You don't go out to dinner with someone and repeat something that they have said on a message board while naming them. Surely you can appreciate this. And I said that this person said they were CONSIDERING going, not definitely going.

Calder is GREAT in December. Nine graded stakes, and another 8-10 of $100k+. A lot all the top East coast trainers are down already and the MSW and NX1 turf races are very good and bettable full-fields. On top of that the place is big and comfortable and not overpriced. Oh, yeah, the weather here in December ain't bad. My favorite racing month down here, by far.

Originally Posted by SentToStud

Calder is GREAT in December. Nine graded stakes, and another 8-10 of $100k+. A lot all the top East coast trainers are down already and the MSW and NX1 turf races are very good and bettable full-fields. On top of that the place is big and comfortable and not overpriced. Oh, yeah, the weather here in December ain't bad. My favorite racing month down here, by far.

Stud I agree completely. They do a hell of a job down there and put on some good shows. December is a great month there.