Spanish Chestnut....

[JJP]

Its not that they weren't good. Its just when you claim those were three of the top 5 in the past 20 years, you're gonna hear about it. Of those three, I'd say Java Gold was the most deserving. Beating Broad Brush and Gulch was solid in the Whitney although IMO Nostalgia's Star and Polish Navy were no world beaters by any stretch for the JCGC. The Travers was a strong field too. Brilliant but brief career.

As for KG, I'd take what any jockey says with a grain of salt. And after Sunday Silence and Easy Goer, there wasn't much to beat in the Haskell (or Ohio Derby for that matter). Sunday Silence had a pretty good turn of foot; I really doubt KG would've beaten Sunday Silence at a mile.

Go for Wand was very solid too although I'm not big on throwing around unadjusted times. Just IMO, she didn't distinguish herself as being better than the true superstar mares. Maybe as good, or close to, but not better.

[Cajungator26]

Opinions are like a ssholes... everyone has got one.

IMO, the best horse of the last 20 years was Easy Goer. God, I loved that horse.

[blackthroatedwind]

Java Gold ( who I believe was 3-10 that day ) lost the JCGC due to Pat Day's incompetence not an injury. In fact, Mack Miller was actually considering running him in the BC, which he was against, to try and recoup HOY but he then discovered an injury. But, the injury did not cost him the Jockey Club, Day's horrendous and inexcusable ride did.

Go for Wand was a VERY good horse. Please...I don't know how anyone could suggest otherwise. Compared to the random horses people call great these days she was the greatest horse of all time.

As for King Glorious...I was at that Haskell and remembering him beating a very bad field. I can't believe anybody would base an opinion of a horse on what a jockey says. Gary Stevens, for instance, has ridden 896 horses that are the best he has ever ridden.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Java Gold ( who I believe was 3-10 that day ) lost the JCGC due to Pat Day's incompetence not an injury. In fact, Mack Miller was actually considering running him in the BC, which he was against, to try and recoup HOY but he then discovered an injury. But, the injury did not cost him the Jockey Club, Day's horrendous and inexcusable ride did.

Go for Wand was a VERY good horse. Please...I don't know how anyone could suggest otherwise. Compared to the random horses people call great these days she was the greatest horse of all time.

As for King Glorious...I was at that Haskell and remembering him beating a very bad field. I can't believe anybody would base an opinion of a horse on what a jockey says. Gary Stevens, for instance, has ridden 896 horses that are the best he has ever ridden.

Yep... my favorite "favorite" of his was Eddington. Talk about a talented but immature colt... he would have won a lot more if he had been mature. LOL

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Java Gold ( who I believe was 3-10 that day ) lost the JCGC due to Pat Day's incompetence not an injury. In fact, Mack Miller was actually considering running him in the BC, which he was against, to try and recoup HOY but he then discovered an injury. But, the injury did not cost him the Jockey Club, Day's horrendous and inexcusable ride did.

Go for Wand was a VERY good horse. Please...I don't know how anyone could suggest otherwise. Compared to the random horses people call great these days she was the greatest horse of all time.

As for King Glorious...I was at that Haskell and remembering him beating a very bad field. I can't believe anybody would base an opinion of a horse on what a jockey says. Gary Stevens, for instance, has ridden 896 horses that are the best he has ever ridden.

Actually it was 897

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Java Gold ( who I believe was 3-10 that day ) lost the JCGC due to Pat Day's incompetence not an injury. In fact, Mack Miller was actually considering running him in the BC, which he was against, to try and recoup HOY but he then discovered an injury. But, the injury did not cost him the Jockey Club, Day's horrendous and inexcusable ride did.

Go for Wand was a VERY good horse. Please...I don't know how anyone could suggest otherwise. Compared to the random horses people call great these days she was the greatest horse of all time.

As for King Glorious...I was at that Haskell and remembering him beating a very bad field. I can't believe anybody would base an opinion of a horse on what a jockey says. Gary Stevens, for instance, has ridden 896 horses that are the best he has ever ridden.

I'm not so sure about that situation with JG. I do remember that the injury thing supposedly came up after the race and they did publicly say that they were reconsidering him for the BC but I never believed a word of it. For months, they had made it clear that the JCGC was the end of his season. Remember, this was only the fourth year of the BC and a lot of the Eastern folks weren't interested in shipping all the way to California that late in the year (the BC that year was 11/21). They still considered the fall races at Belmont as the true championships. Remember that the winners of the Beldame (Personal Ensign), Champagne (Forty Niner), JCGC (Creme Fraiche) were also held out that year too. Pat Day's ride didn't help either. He was too overconfident and let that other horse go and should have respected Creme Fraiche more than he did. Any horse that has a Belmont win, a Super Derby win, a Donn win, a JCGC win, and the Meadowlands Cup has to be respected.

I don't base my opinion of KG on what McCarron or Stevens said. I based it on what I saw. I saw him live run a 1:08 4/5 at Hollywood. I saw him live run a 1:21 1/5 (which at the time, the DRF said equalled the second fastest time ever for a 2yo). I just think he was the fastest horse I've ever seen in terms of natural cruising speed.

[blackthroatedwind]

Everyone has their favorites. Who I am to knock anyone's...I loved Dynever.


I was probably at Belmont for every race you mentioned in 1987 ( as well as that BC at Hollywood ). I remember the Java Gold situation well, as he is actually one of my all-time favs, and what you said is correct. However, he lost the JCGC because of that imbecile Pat Day.

Personal Ensign was probably held out more because she had just returned from an injury and won the Rare Perfume and Beldame in like a ten minute period ( give or take 11 days ) and Creme Fraiche was a gelding who more than likely wasn't BC eligible. As for Forty Niner, perhaps they wanted to wait a year for Krone to bury him.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Everyone has their favorites. Who I am to knock anyone's...I loved Dynever.


I was probably at Belmont for every race you mentioned in 1987 ( as well as that BC at Hollywood ). I remember the Java Gold situation well, as he is actually one of my all-time favs, and what you said is correct. However, he lost the JCGC because of that imbecile Pat Day.

Personal Ensign was probably held out more because she had just returned from an injury and won the Rare Perfume and Beldame in like a ten minute period ( give or take 11 days ) and Creme Fraiche was a gelding who more than likely wasn't BC eligible. As for Forty Niner, perhaps they wanted to wait a year for Krone to bury him.

Did you know that they changed his name to Ittasak? What the heck does that mean?

[blackthroatedwind]

I think it translates to " final indignity ".

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I think it translates to " final indignity ".

Are you pulling my chain or are you being serious? I'm extremely gullible, so I'll believe it. LOL

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by JJP

Its not that they weren't good. Its just when you claim those were three of the top 5 in the past 20 years, you're gonna hear about it. Of those three, I'd say Java Gold was the most deserving. Beating Broad Brush and Gulch was solid in the Whitney although IMO Nostalgia's Star and Polish Navy were no world beaters by any stretch for the JCGC. The Travers was a strong field too. Brilliant but brief career.

As for KG, I'd take what any jockey says with a grain of salt. And after Sunday Silence and Easy Goer, there wasn't much to beat in the Haskell (or Ohio Derby for that matter). Sunday Silence had a pretty good turn of foot; I really doubt KG would've beaten Sunday Silence at a mile.

Go for Wand was very solid too although I'm not big on throwing around unadjusted times. Just IMO, she didn't distinguish herself as being better than the true superstar mares. Maybe as good, or close to, but not better.

I know I'll hear about it but it doesn't bother me. As I said, it's just opinions. I thought that him beating Nostalgia's Star and Polish Navy in the Marlboro were more impressive than the Whitney. Polish Navy had just come off of a win against older in the Woodward, where he had beaten Gulch (and I believe Bet Twice also) to confirm even more that the 3yo's were a better and deeper group than the older horses that year. Nostalgia's Star, while not a great horse, was a solid older horse (Strub, Hawthorne Gold Cup plus numerous other placings in good races).

As for McCarron's comments, take them as u will. Because he had ridden KG and Sunday Silence, I thought he was in a good position to make a call there. I also had asked Gary Stevens for his opinion before the Santa Anita Derby. He said that he thought that if KG was there, he'd have been favored over Sunday Silence too. Of course, this was before everyone found out just how good SS really was. There was absolutely nothing that KG beat in either the Ohio Derby or the Haskell except for maybe Music Merci. I wasn't touting the quality of those fields though, only answering your question.

With GfW, I would agree with u that a single race time is no way to judge a horse. But when u are able to string together three races like that, that's more than just fast tracks or favorable circumstances. And just the fact that she was able to run step for step with Bayakoa told me that everything she had done was legit. Bayakoa was truly one of the most outstanding mares to come along in the past 20 years. I think easily top five (very underrated in my opinion) and she was a more mature 6yo horse at the time they faced each other. Of course it's all speculation on how much, if any, GfW could have improved in the next year or two had she continued on but even the slightest improvement and I think the question of who was the greatest female runner of all-time would have one universal answer.