Top 5 best two-surface horses of the last 20 years

[CSC]

If Arazi retired after the BC, I wonder where most of us would put him on this list? He was absolutely brilliant as a 2 yr old on both continents. Hard not to be top 5.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by CSC

If Arazi retired after the BC, I wonder where most of us would put him on this list? He was absolutely brilliant as a 2 yr old on both continents. Hard not to be top 5.

He easily wouldn't have been top 5 if he retired after age 2.

Pretty much for the same reason why dominant 2-year-olds never get considered for Horse of the Year honors when there is a 3yo or older horse out there with a real strong resume.

The vase majority of the winners of races like the Breeders Cup Classic and Dubai World Cup have been extremely elite horses.

If you look at winners of a race like the Breeders Cup Juvenile ... you see a whole lot of names of horses who otherwise never achieved very much.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

He easily wouldn't have been top 5 if he retired after age 2.

Pretty much for the same reason why dominant 2-year-olds never get considered for Horse of the Year honors when there is a 3yo or older horse out there with a real strong resume.

The vase majority of the winners of races like the Breeders Cup Classic and Dubai World Cup have been extremely elite horses.

If you look at winners of a race like the Breeders Cup Juvenile ... you see a whole lot of names of horses who otherwise never achieved very much.

Very rare a horse has been great at 2, carried it onto a 3 yr old season and came back at 4 on top of their games. Off the top of my head I can't think of any horse that has done that. Seattle Slew, Affirmed maybe...but I would have to look at their race records. Ghostzapper was brilliantly fast but raced far too sporadically for me to love him as a horse. Respect what he has done yes, but not to the same degree of what Cigar did in terms of longevity and putting himself out there to be beaten.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

There were a lot of total creampuffs around when Cigar was on his epic winning streak.

In terms of longevity I would certainly favor Skip Away over him. In terms of ability I would also favor Skip Away.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

There were a lot of total creampuffs around when Cigar was on his epic winning streak.

In terms of longevity I would certainly favor Skip Away over him. In terms of ability I would also favor Skip Away.

I think the big change for Skip Away was he finally got a decent jock on him when Bailey got aboard later in his career, he was ridden more forwardly after Sellers and Santos were jettisoned and it certainly elevated his stature. He was definitely a better horse towards the latter part of his career than earlier when he was soundly beaten by Formal Gold on more than one occasion. The competition argument regarding Cigar is a valid and who knows how it would have panned out had Holy Bull not have been hurt (where we only have half a race to gauge that), I don't hold that against him but I can understand why people would point that out, it's nothing new.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

I don't think the jocks mattered much ... Skip Away beat Cigar going a classic distance as a 3yo with Sellers on him.

I don't think Skip Away got better near the end ... I just think the epic talent level of the competition he was facing wore down before he did. Formal Gold and Will's Way both retired at supreme levels. Gentlemen was starting to decline. It was bacially a cause and effect.

When sharp horses like this get out of the way ....




You finally saw the long win streak and the sillyness about Skip Away's inability to win more than half of his races was put to rest.

[Travis Stone]

Look at those Beyers... it's been a long time since we saw a lot of those.

[King Glorious]

Just thinking again about the kind or orgasms people would be having on forum board today if these kinds of horses were still around. Instead, we get to debate the merits of the Macho Agains and Past the Points and Einsteins of the world. Decent horses to be sure but ones that should never be considered top horses. Hell, even the Curlins and Big Browns don't compare.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by CSC

Very rare a horse has been great at 2, carried it onto a 3 yr old season and came back at 4 on top of their games. Off the top of my head I can't think of any horse that has done that. Seattle Slew, Affirmed maybe...but I would have to look at their race records. Ghostzapper was brilliantly fast but raced far too sporadically for me to love him as a horse. Respect what he has done yes, but not to the same degree of what Cigar did in terms of longevity and putting himself out there to be beaten.

No need to look at their records. Some others that did it off the top of my head:

Gulch, Personal Ensign, Best Pal, Bertrando, Free House, Silver Charm, Bet Twice, Serena's Song, Sharp Cat, Easy Goer, Spectacular Bid

Of course, it all depends on what you call great but those were all grade one winners in each year. Well, Bertrando didn't win a grade one as a 3yo but he did win a grade two and certainly carried his talent over the three seasons.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

No need to look at their records. Some others that did it off the top of my head:

Gulch, Personal Ensign, Best Pal, Bertrando, Free House, Silver Charm, Bet Twice, Serena's Song, Sharp Cat, Easy Goer, Spectacular Bid

Of course, it all depends on what you call great but those were all grade one winners in each year. Well, Bertrando didn't win a grade one as a 3yo but he did win a grade two and certainly carried his talent over the three seasons.

Personal Ensign was a rarity though I wish she had raced more than the 13 times she did, Serena's Song lost it abit towards the end of her career and was kept around for the earnings record by Lewis/Lukas. Easy Goer was less effective at 4 and though he was a pretty good horse, I am not sure I would put him up there with the elite of all time.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

He easily wouldn't have been top 5 if he retired after age 2.

Pretty much for the same reason why dominant 2-year-olds never get considered for Horse of the Year honors when there is a 3yo or older horse out there with a real strong resume.

The vase majority of the winners of races like the Breeders Cup Classic and Dubai World Cup have been extremely elite horses.

If you look at winners of a race like the Breeders Cup Juvenile ... you see a whole lot of names of horses who otherwise never achieved very much.

But Arazi was considered for HOY as a 2yo. He was one of the three finalist that year.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

But Arazi was considered for HOY as a 2yo. He was one of the three finalist that year.

He deserved to be a finalist because he was an amazing 2yo - who just laughed at our best horses with an amazing move.

However, comparing a 2yo who won a dirt race with a 101 Beyer and real nice 2yo turf races in Europe ... to a horse like this ...




it's like trying to compare Tim Tebow to Dan Marino.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

He deserved to be a finalist because he was an amazing 2yo - who just laughed at our best horses with an amazing move.

However, comparing a 2yo who won a dirt race with a 101 Beyer and real nice 2yo turf races in Europe ... to a horse like this ...




it's like trying to compare Tim Tebow to Dan Marino.

I wasn't comparing him to any horse. Only pointing out a 2yo that did get serious consideration for HOY.