NYT: Drugs & I Want Revenge

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by gamblin4ever

No lasix,Bute or anything. No drugs at all. Like in my 1st post i dont know if these are truly needed,how do they help a horse or anything the like. But it seems to me that a horse that bleeds should not run until the problem is fixed instead of given Lasix as example. Couldn't we have rules like Europe no drugs in system on race day. I admit i don't know much about that stuff but horses racing w/o drugs seems best to me. Thanks for your input Chuck as you know a heck of alot more than me on the subject.

The problem is that you need to have some baselines, guidelines, etc. The tests now are sophisticated enough to pick up minute doses of just about anything if they are looking for it. The problem with the rules is that in many cases finding something in a horses system and its ability to actual affect performance are totally different animals. What we are doing now is simply detecting the presence of a substance with no regard to its effectiveness. Which is not only a huge waste of time and resources but gives off the false impression that every horse is pumped full of drugs every time there is a positive. I am NOT saying that some arent or that certain trainers and/or vets arent going over the line. But all this nonsense about eliminating Lasix is so far off base that I cant believe we continue to even debate it. Lasix is an effective treatment for the deficiency of bleeding in horses. There is no one reason why horses bleed. There really is no prevention. And to want to ban its use, especially when it finally has a university test that proves what we already knew, it works, is spiteful and damaging for the horses. The idea that bleeding is some how bred into or can be bred out of horses is stupid.

I also dont believe that European racing and especially Australian racing is all that clean either. The majority of "hops" that have been used over the years were developed and first used outside of the US. The only place that probably has as close to totally clean racing (in terms of medication) as any place is Hong Kong. And there is virtually no way to duplicate their set up.

[randallscott35]

Horses do just fine without lasix in Europe Chuck.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by randallscott35

Horses do just fine without lasix in Europe Chuck.

Well then lets just have all racing in Europe! And why do so many horses improve when they come here and use Lasix? Maybe because they were bleeding?

[randallscott35]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Well then lets just have all racing in Europe! And why do so many horses improve when they come here and use Lasix? Maybe because they were bleeding?

What's your point? Lasix isn't natural. If we went to hay and oats and no lasix I wouldn't care if a ton of horses couldn't run. We need a healthy breed. Not the best bleeders around....And the bigger isssue is lasix is a masking agent.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by randallscott35

What's your point? Lasix isn't natural. If we went to hay and oats and no lasix I wouldn't care if a ton of horses couldn't run. We need a healthy breed. Not the best bleeders around....And the bigger isssue is lasix is a masking agent.

Lasix cant mask anything anymore. That is patently false. And since when has racing become organic? Natural?

If we went to hay, oats and water (which has never been, there was lots being done back in the day that simply wasnt detectable ) then you would have more horses bleeding, more things tried to make them stop bleeding, more inconsistent form and form reversals, and less healthy horses. Perhaps you missed the part where bleeding isnt caused by Lasix and its elimination wont lead to less bleeding or bleeders.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by randallscott35

What's your point? Lasix isn't natural. If we went to hay and oats and no lasix I wouldn't care if a ton of horses couldn't run. We need a healthy breed. Not the best bleeders around....And the bigger isssue is lasix is a masking agent.

What do you do with all of those horses then?


All horses have the potential to become bleeders - this is a good and brief article on what is going on in the horses lungs while under exercise:

http://www.ctba.com/03magazine/jul/AskVets.pdf

[Linny]

Originally Posted by randallscott35

Horses do just fine without lasix in Europe Chuck.

There they run a tiny fraction of the number of race held here and the ones that bleed get sent to the US. The one's who's owners can't afford to send them here send them to France to be processed into spam. One ugly secret is that a far higher percentage of European TB's end up on dinner plates and dog bowls than here in the US.

[gamblin4ever]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

The problem is that you need to have some baselines, guidelines, etc. The tests now are sophisticated enough to pick up minute doses of just about anything if they are looking for it. The problem with the rules is that in many cases finding something in a horses system and its ability to actual affect performance are totally different animals. What we are doing now is simply detecting the presence of a substance with no regard to its effectiveness. Which is not only a huge waste of time and resources but gives off the false impression that every horse is pumped full of drugs every time there is a positive. I am NOT saying that some arent or that certain trainers and/or vets arent going over the line. But all this nonsense about eliminating Lasix is so far off base that I cant believe we continue to even debate it. Lasix is an effective treatment for the deficiency of bleeding in horses. There is no one reason why horses bleed. There really is no prevention. And to want to ban its use, especially when it finally has a university test that proves what we already knew, it works, is spiteful and damaging for the horses. The idea that bleeding is some how bred into or can be bred out of horses is stupid.

I also dont believe that European racing and especially Australian racing is all that clean either. The majority of "hops" that have been used over the years were developed and first used outside of the US. The only place that probably has as close to totally clean racing (in terms of medication) as any place is Hong Kong. And there is virtually no way to duplicate their set up.

Thanks for explaining, it just seems too many trainers use Lasix on horses to believe that many horses bleed even on FTS. Thanks again for explaining the reasoning.

[randallscott35]

If horses couldn't use lasix you wouldn't breed bleeders. Simple as that.

[richard]

"Corticosteroids can be injected into joints and have therapeutic value. They also are prevalent at American tracks, and often given within days of a race, especially in the sport’s lower levels where sore horses must make it to the starting gate."

The "therapeutic value" I have no problem with . The part about using them so that "sore horses make it to the starting gate" is troubling.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by randallscott35

If horses couldn't use lasix you wouldn't breed bleeders. Simple as that.

How anyone could have as clear a view of economics as you and still post something like this is amazing. It is like saying if we got rid of antibiotics, no one would ever get sick.

"Bleeding" isnt a physical characteristic of a horse anymore than a cold is a physical characteristic of a human. Total crock.

[the_fat_man]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

How anyone could have as clear a view of economics as you and still post something like this is amazing. It is like saying if we got rid of antibiotics, no one would ever get sick.

"Bleeding" isnt a physical characteristic of a horse anymore than a cold is a physical characteristic of a human. Total crock.

While I don't buy your cold analogy, I agree that it doesn't make sense, economically, to only race those horses that don't bleed under pressure.

Why in the world would anyone want only the gifted equine athlete competing when we can have every doofus bleeding horse out there doing its thing as well? Worked for Brady Anderson (and the others).

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by the_fat_man

While I don't buy your cold analogy, I agree that it doesn't make sense, economically, to only race those horses that don't bleed under pressure.

Why in the world would anyone want only the gifted equine athlete competing when we can have every doofus bleeding horse out there doing its thing as well? Worked for Brady Anderson (and the others).

You obviously dont understand the issue either.

[the_fat_man]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

You obviously dont understand the issue either.

I understand the issue. You want to treat ALL bleeders the same way. Bleeding because of stress in hot weather is different from bleeding because of a blow to the head. I got it. Why do something specific when you have the general: LASIX.

Why bother with making sure the horse is fit enough to be put under pressure, or good enough. Or, maybe, the horse is just not of the type that can endure training. Rather than keep these 'frail' types out of the gene pool, just hit them with some generic drug, and it's all good BECAUSE, you can't be breeding all these horses and not running them simply because they just can't endure the training/activity.

[randallscott35]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

How anyone could have as clear a view of economics as you and still post something like this is amazing. It is like saying if we got rid of antibiotics, no one would ever get sick.

"Bleeding" isnt a physical characteristic of a horse anymore than a cold is a physical characteristic of a human. Total crock.

How is bleeding not a physcial characteristic? I think the Euro trainers would disagree....

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by randallscott35

How is bleeding not a physcial characteristic? I think the Euro trainers would disagree....

Because there are multiple causes of bleeding, most which are related to outside factors. Lots of times the cause is stress. More horses bleed in severe weather, really hot and humid or really cold. Horses bleed because they are sore. Horses bleed because they have respiratory infections. Horses bleed if they hit their heads in the gate. Horses bleed because of allergies. Why is it not hard to understand that bleeding doesnt just happen because a horses sire and dam were treated with a diuretic?

Do you know any Euro trainers? Ironically I do and they are always asking for new things to treat their horses.

[randallscott35]

Yes Aidan O'Brien is on my speed dial of course. The point I was making is there is plenty of horse racing in the world without lasix, you seem to think there wouldn't be which is silly. We'd be fine in this country without lasix, we were before lasix. It's also kind of easy to be biased in this argument as a trainer who relies on it. Are there horses you don't give it to? Probably not, which means regardless of whether a horse needs it or not you give it....which is what nearly all U.S. trainers do.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

. And there is virtually no way to duplicate their set up.

Explain??

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Explain??

One backside, two tracks, complete surveillance 24 hours a day, vets work for Jockey Club, small horse population, good weather, no due process, trainers/owners limited numbers, form stewards, gigantic budget.