Breeders Cup Turf winners 1999-2008

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

That's an interesting twist. Johar was able to deadheat with the beloved High Chapparal due to a bad ride a jock gave a third horse?

And just how many races of Johar's did you see? As Rollo just mentioned, Johar was coming around nicely towards the end of his three year old campaign, and personally, I think he would have won the BC that year had he run in it.

You may have seen more in Johar than he put on the track but it's somewhat undeniable given what we saw from horses like Daylami, Fantastic Light, Kalanisi, and even the emerging Conduit that they are far better than him on their best days.

NT

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

You may have seen more in Johar than he put on the track but it's somewhat undeniable given what we saw from horses like Daylami, Fantastic Light, Kalanisi, and even the emerging Conduit that they are far better than him on their best days.

NT

Except what you are doing is mostly comparing older European horse form to an american three year old form. The only 2 legit races Johar ran in as a 4 year old he won. He dead heated High Chapparal. For those that dont understand that means tied. That means he beat a bunch of other Euros and was at least the equal of the best one. Look at Schirrocos form. Before the BC he never won a race outside of Germany or Italy. It is pretty apparant that we never saw much of the best of Johar on the track as an older horse.

[brockguy]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Look at Schirrocos form. Before the BC he never won a race outside of Germany or Italy. It is pretty apparant that we never saw much of the best of Johar on the track as an older horse.

There's a lot hidden in that statement Chuck.. He never raced outside Germany (where he won the Derby) and Italy (where he beat a Dubai World Cup winner!) until September of his 4yo career. After being off for a nearly a year, He was 3rd behind Pride (multple G1 filly) and Alkaased (a Japan Cup winner) in his prep for the Arc, then was 4th in the Arc behind mutiple G1 winners Hurricane Run, Westerner and Bago.

Excluding Johars BC win, you could say Shirocco's 4th in that Arc was better than anything Johar accomplished..

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by brockguy

There's a lot hidden in that statement Chuck.. He never raced outside Germany (where he won the Derby) and Italy (where he beat a Dubai World Cup winner!) until September of his 4yo career. After being off for a nearly a year, He was 3rd behind Pride (multple G1 filly) and Alkaased (a Japan Cup winner) in his prep for the Arc, then was 4th in the Arc behind mutiple G1 winners Hurricane Run, Westerner and Bago.

Excluding Johars BC win, you could say Shirocco's 4th in that Arc was better than anything Johar accomplished..

That may be true but Johar did DH with a very very good horse in High Chaparel which surely is a better effort than anything Shirocco ever produced. The fact was Johar was a horse who improved almost from day 1, had a compromised 4 year old year and no record after the BC due to injury. While his body of work may not be as complete as some of the others his best race was pretty damn good. Certainly he wasnt a cinch to continue to improve but chances are that we never did see his best. Plus Shirracco beat Ace in his BC. Hank could give Ace a run for his money.

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Except what you are doing is mostly comparing older European horse form to an american three year old form. The only 2 legit races Johar ran in as a 4 year old he won. He dead heated High Chapparal. For those that dont understand that means tied. That means he beat a bunch of other Euros and was at least the equal of the best one. Look at Schirrocos form. Before the BC he never won a race outside of Germany or Italy. It is pretty apparant that we never saw much of the best of Johar on the track as an older horse.

Thanks for the clarification on what's a dead heat. That's scheduled to be covered in session #4 that I have with RockHardTenPGJCS113004055Dagulla where he teaches me racing and we're only on #2.

I'm not getting into potential because that's really what any fan of Johar is resting their case upon.

I didn't say anything about Shirocco but having the luxury of seeing the entire careers of Fantastic Light, Daylami, and Kalanisi, then I'm willing to say that even if we didn't see the best of Johar, it would have had to be better than anything he had done prior to best those "older European horses."

NT

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

Thanks for the clarification on what's a dead heat. That's scheduled to be covered in session #4 that I have with RockHardTenPGJCS113004055Dagulla where he teaches me racing and we're only on #2.

I'm not getting into potential because that's really what any fan of Johar is resting their case upon.

I didn't say anything about Shirocco but having the luxury of seeing the entire careers of Fantastic Light, Daylami, and Kalanisi, then I'm willing to say that even if we didn't see the best of Johar, it would have had to be better than anything he had done prior to best those "older European horses."

NT

Of course it is conjecture but again you are comparing established older horse form to an abbreviated career. Not saying that Johar was going to be better than those but the fact was his 2 fairly run races as a 4 year old were pretty damn good. And if he was good enough on his best day to DH with the 2nd best horse on the list than he surely had the potential to be at least as good s the rest if he had been given the chance. It wasnt as though he was some bum as BWS is trying to imply.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Of course it is conjecture but again you are comparing established older horse form to an abbreviated career. Not saying that Johar was going to be better than those but the fact was his 2 fairly run races as a 4 year old were pretty damn good. And if he was good enough on his best day to DH with the 2nd best horse on the list than he surely had the potential to be at least as good s the rest if he had been given the chance. It wasnt as though he was some bum as BWS is trying to imply.

I do like that you called me out, when I've been much nicer than several others posting about him.

With that said...

I'm fairly confident that my assessment is much closer to spot on than that one borderline unbelievable post in here that was trying to imply that a nose win over Rock Opera was going to be a springboard to a BC Turf win.

I never said he was terrible. I stand by the assertion that EVERYONE else here but you and IC is trying to say -- that he ran a huge race in the BC....but on that list, he's just not that good compared to them, you know, the original point of the thread.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

I'm fairly confident that my assessment is much closer to spot on than that one borderline unbelievable post in here that was trying to imply that a nose win over Rock Opera was going to be a springboard to a BC Turf win.

Itsallgreektome won a Grade 3 at Bay Meadows against fellow 3yos before nearly taking down the BC Mile in '90. It goes back to the idea that young horses can progress fairly rapidly.

While in 2002 Indian Charlie would have been dodging tomatoes for predicting such, the fact that Johar DID win the BC Turf the following year takes a lot of the absurdity out of the prediction.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Itsallgreektome won a Grade 3 at Bay Meadows against fellow 3yos before nearly taking down the BC Mile in '90. It goes back to the idea that young horses can progress fairly rapidly.

While in 2002 Indian Charlie would have been dodging tomatoes for predicting such, the fact that Johar DID win the BC Turf the following year takes a lot of the absurdity out of the prediction.

Except for the fact that they're a year apart and don't really have anything to do with each other.

Obviously Johar was a better horse the year he won the BC Turf. The idea that a desperate nose winner over Rock Opera was going to go win the BC Turf in his next start (no less after seeing how it was won....) is made no less absurd because the horse won the BC turf over a year later. Non sequiter.

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

Thanks for the clarification on what's a dead heat. That's scheduled to be covered in session #4 that I have with RockHardTenPGJCS113004055Dagulla where he teaches me racing and we're only on #2.

I'm not getting into potential because that's really what any fan of Johar is resting their case upon.

I didn't say anything about Shirocco but having the luxury of seeing the entire careers of Fantastic Light, Daylami, and Kalanisi, then I'm willing to say that even if we didn't see the best of Johar, it would have had to be better than anything he had done prior to best those "older European horses."

NT

Not cool Nick.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

You may have seen more in Johar than he put on the track but it's somewhat undeniable given what we saw from horses like Daylami, Fantastic Light, Kalanisi, and even the emerging Conduit that they are far better than him on their best days.

NT

I'll not argue Daylami, for obvious reasons.

The others, I could make a case against. I'd liked to have seen more of Kalanisi, so I'm not sure I could make a case against him as well as FL or Conduit.