Sea the Stars - How good?

[brockguy]

Originally Posted by CSC

I think we all would love to see him run in the Arc, don't you feel this race is a must if he is to be included with the greats as in Nijinsky II? There are questions is he as effective at 1 1/2 as he is at 1 1/4. In addition Urban Sea's progeny have yet to transfer their turf form over to the dirt track now poly if The Classic is a consideration, I actually like the horses quite alot, just stirring up some conversation as his record is being somewhat unchallenged here, and there are few questions remaining to be answered to me atleast. But praise this high coming from you brock, he must be something special. While recognizing he's a very good horse, I want to see if he can clear a few more hurdles before I mention him in DM's class.

Yeah, he has already won the top 3yo race in Europe, the top all age race in Britain, the top all age race in Ireland, but what many legends of the past did was run in ALL the top events and win them. Therefore, I would love to see Sea The Stars run in the Arc. If you see him run, he only just uses the minimum amount of energy required, you can see he still has a lot left in the tank. Thats why he has been so consistently good this year. If he was to miss the Arc, travelling to the States and winning the Classic would be a fantastic achievement but I would have slight doubts about his ability to handle the poly. He sure looks like he could perform well on it, but you just dont know..

There are still those who knock him saying he isnt sure to stay 12f as his Derby win was won in a crawl (not quite that slow, but it pays to exaggerate!) The Arc would be almost sure to be run at a fast pace and I believe it would just make his dominance clearer. The Arc looks to be a high class renewal this year (a lot better than last year) and winning that would bring him to mythical status..

Just one thing I was looking up - In his 5 races this year, Coolmore have thrown 18 horses into his races without finding one who can beat him. And that's with a very talented trio of Rip Van Winkle (lost 3 times), Fame and Glory (lost twice) and Mastercraftsman (lost 3 times). Due to their lack of success this year, its more than likely that we see them next year and show off how good they really are in a post Sea The Stars racing climate..

[CSC]

Originally Posted by brockguy

Just one thing I was looking up - In his 5 races this year, Coolmore have thrown 18 horses into his races without finding one who can beat him. And that's with a very talented trio of Rip Van Winkle (lost 3 times), Fame and Glory (lost twice) and Mastercraftsman (lost 3 times). Due to their lack of success this year, its more than likely that we see them next year and show off how good they really are in a post Sea The Stars racing climate..

Where would he rank to the likes of Hawk Wing, High Chapparal, Galileo, and dare I ask Dubai Millenium?

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by CSC

Where would he rank to the likes of Hawk Wing, High Chapparal, Galileo, and dare I ask Dubai Millenium?

Im no expert, from what I have saw... I would say he is 1-2 on that list.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985

Im no expert, from what I have saw... I would say he is 1-2 on that list.

He definitely belongs with that select group of Ballydoyle's more recent greats! I would have mentioned Rock Of Gibralter however he was a mile specialist. This is where Dubai Millenium has the edge IMO his race in France (can't remember the name) at a mile showed his quality, he toyed with not tier 2 horses but a superb miler as Dansili, just think about that one at 1 mile. Not his preferred trip.

[GPK]

Didn't realize he is half to both Galileo and My Typhoon.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by GPK

Didn't realize he is half to both Galileo and My Typhoon.

Don't forget Black Bellamy Sam... Obviously he missed the Urban Sea gene.

[Indian Charlie]

Urban Sea has three grade one winners, including Sea the Stars.

She also has two others that ran second in grade ones.

And yet another that never won a grade one but was still the champion two year old in Ireland.

[brockguy]

Originally Posted by CSC

Where would he rank to the likes of Hawk Wing, High Chapparal, Galileo, and dare I ask Dubai Millenium?

Meant to respond to this post before today as I believe Rip Van Winkle who Sea The Stars has handled easily 3 times this year could well be the best horse Aidan O'Brien has trained. He could very easily end up (providing his feet stay OK) winning the QEII and Breeders Cup Classic.

I certainly think he is better than the 3 Coolmore horses that you mentioned. Dubai Millennium would compare with him though. Its tough to say. DM was brilliant on 2 surfaces but again, I dont think the form of the horses he beat was as solid as STS. Take for example DM's incredible Prince Of Wales stakes where he beat Sumitas by 8L and had Sendawar toiling. It was a great performance, but none of the horses behind DM that day ever won again. With STS, you see the horses he is beating easily, put up brilliant performances subsequently.. Mastercraftsman, Rip Van Winkle, Conduit, Fame and Glory..

We will know more after today!!

[Pedigree Ann]

Now let me be a bit contrarian.

Dubai Millennium never won a G1 classic or wfa at 12f, the European classic distance. At 3, he showed he was a brilliant miler after he finished a well-beaten 9th in a sub-standard Derby. At 4, he won the World Cup 10f and the Prince of Wales's (10f) but never got the chance to show that, like Brigadier Gerard, that he could stretch his miler speed to 12f with his class. He was more of a 'might have been one of the greatest' than an actual member of the club.

[TropicalStorm]

Originally Posted by Pedigree Ann

Now let me be a bit contrarian.

Dubai Millennium never won a G1 classic or wfa at 12f, the European classic distance. At 3, he showed he was a brilliant miler after he finished a well-beaten 9th in a sub-standard Derby. At 4, he won the World Cup 10f and the Prince of Wales's (10f) but never got the chance to show that, like Brigadier Gerard, that he could stretch his miler speed to 12f with his class. He was more of a 'might have been one of the greatest' than an actual member of the club.

I agree. I have no idea why he is always mentioned and a truly great horse like Zarkava is rarely mentioned. Zarkava was clearly a better horse than Dubai Millenium but I guess her short career may have a little to do with it.

[brockguy]

Originally Posted by CrossfireHurricane

I agree. I have no idea why he is always mentioned and a truly great horse like Zarkava is rarely mentioned. Zarkava was clearly a better horse than Dubai Millenium but I guess her short career may have a little to do with it.

Zarkava is consistently mentioned as a great horse, but we never saw how good she could have been...

Plus, Id love you to tell me (as well as the Racing Post and Timeform) why I am stupid for thinking Dubai Millennium was a better horse than Zarkava..

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by brockguy

Zarkava is consistently mentioned as a great horse, but we never saw how good she could have been...

Plus, Id love you to tell me (as well as the Racing Post and Timeform) why I am stupid for thinking Dubai Millennium was a better horse than Zarkava..

Comparing two super horses is crazy..

[TropicalStorm]

Originally Posted by brockguy

Zarkava is consistently mentioned as a great horse, but we never saw how good she could have been...

Plus, Id love you to tell me (as well as the Racing Post and Timeform) why I am stupid for thinking Dubai Millennium was a better horse than Zarkava..

I did not say you were stupid I just think when he had his chance at 12f he looked like a very mediocre horse. Zarkava handled the 12f with ease and actually powered away at the end.

Dubai Millenium is mentioned much more than Zarkava too. It probably is because in America many do not even know about Zarkava but they know Dubai Millenium because of his Dubai race.

I do not go crazy over timeform ratings either. They rated Curlin above Zarkava which really is quite funny. She probably would have beaten him by 10+ lengths in a race like the ARC and two milers were able to beat him at his best distance of 10f.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by brockguy

Zarkava is consistently mentioned as a great horse, but we never saw how good she could have been...

Plus, Id love you to tell me (as well as the Racing Post and Timeform) why I am stupid for thinking Dubai Millennium was a better horse than Zarkava..

I don't think it's saying you are stupid. I think it's a matter of preference. Some people require seeing things proven at the so called classic distances. Zarkava and Sea the Stars did that. DM didn't. I'm not one of those people and apparently neither are you. I think brilliance can be seen no matter the distance they run. I remember once asking Chris McCarron (who had ridden King Glorious and Sunday Silence and against Easy Goer) which of the three he thought was best. He said that up to 8f, they'd never catch KG, at 9f they'd probably just get him and they'd handle him at 10f. To me, that doesn't say they were better than him. Just that they were better at the longer distances.

For me, neither Zarkava, Sea the Stars, or DM were as good as Lammtarra, who I still believe is one of the three best horses I've ever seen and I never understand why he doesn't get more respect. What he did was unprecedented. And in Pentire, Freedom Cry, and Swain, he was beating top class horses just like Sea the Stars is.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by CrossfireHurricane

I agree. I have no idea why he is always mentioned and a truly great horse like Zarkava is rarely mentioned. Zarkava was clearly a better horse than Dubai Millenium but I guess her short career may have a little to do with it.

I think the most impressive thing for me regarding Zarkava is how she drilled Goldikova at a mile. We knew Goldikova was good at that point but we've since seen just how good and Zarkava handled her. To have the stamina to beat the world's best 12f horses and the speed to beat the world's best miler is incredibly impressive.