As expected Crist is the man about the girl

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by GBBob

I would love to try RA on the turf too..why not Fred? If you have nothing to prove and it doesn't have any potential risk physically..go crazy with her. Obviously the 3 yr old and older dirt division horses are limited, so why not look outside the box for new challenges? If she runs 5th in the Arlington Million next year it won't hurt her breeding value at all.

People are very unforgiving of losses. Look at how many people (stupidly) point out that she barely held on in the Preakness. Jackson isn't caring about the breeding value - floundering on a surface because you said "why the hell not" isn't going to earn you any extra points.

Look through the list of the Top 100 of all time - how many of those horses were specific to ONE surface. Are any of us thinking any less of them because of it? I sure hope the hell not.

[GBBob]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

People are very unforgiving of losses. Look at how many people (stupidly) point out that she barely held on in the Preakness. Jackson isn't caring about the breeding value - floundering on a surface because you said "why the hell not" isn't going to earn you any extra points.

Look through the list of the Top 100 of all time - how many of those horses were specific to ONE surface. Are any of us thinking any less of them because of it? I sure hope the hell not.

I could care less about being on a Top 100 list. That's not the point..it's a personal agenda he has about the surface..nothing more, nothing less

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by GBBob

I could care less about being on a Top 100 list. That's not the point..it's a personal agenda he has about the surface..nothing more, nothing less

I suppose the connections of Zenyatta have a personal agenda against wet race tracks and competition capable of running a Beyer better than 96.

[GBBob]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

I suppose the connections of Zenyatta have a personal agenda against wet race tracks and competition capable of running a Beyer better than 96.

I feel the same way about that situation too. They are as accountable for this mess as Jackson.

I wonder when Sheik Mo offers his $10 Million purse in Dubai on their new surface if Jackson will be as stubborn?

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by GBBob

I could care less about being on a Top 100 list. That's not the point..it's a personal agenda he has about the surface..nothing more, nothing less

Who freakin cares if he has a personal agenda about the surface - you think it's a wonderful surface and that fine, so run your horses on it. If he thinks it was a bad decision to run the BC at Santa Anita again and doesn't support it than he can run HIS horse elsewhere. Like he is doing - and doing a damn good job at it.

Do you do what everyone tells you you should do with your horses?

[GBBob]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

Who freakin cares if he has a personal agenda about the surface - you think it's a wonderful surface and that fine, so run your horses on it. If he thinks it was a bad decision to run the BC at Santa Anita again and doesn't support it than he can run HIS horse elsewhere. Like he is doing - and doing a damn good job at it.

Do you do what everyone tells you you should do with your horses?

He's a hypocrite. Last year he took all the glory for running Curlin as a 4 year old and waved the "good of the game" flag proudly. I'm not going to stand firm that poly is good for racing or bad for it...that is a very debateable and legitimate conversation, but in my mind there is no way you can say that not running her in the sport's Championship races is consistant with what he was claiming last year with Curlin.

And I would say the same thing to Zenyatta's connection if the BC was at CD this year and they wouldn't ship there.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by GBBob

He's a hypocrite. Last year he took all the glory for running Curlin as a 4 year old and waved the "good of the game" flag proudly. I'm not going to stand firm that poly is good for racing or bad for it...that is a very debateable and legitimate conversation, but in my mind there is no way you can say that not running her in the sport's Championship races is consistant with what he was claiming last year with Curlin.

And I would say the same thing to Zenyatta's connection if the BC was at CD this year and they wouldn't ship there.

At least you're fair with your criticism.

[GBBob]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

At least you're fair with your criticism.

Yeah..but they would just run Zenyatta on the turf

[CSC]

For all this safe and conservative talk, one thing is a certain Zenyatta will be on the biggest stage of racing this fall, RA may or may not. To me Zenyatta's connections got it right this time not RA's.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by GBBob

Yeah..but they would just run Zenyatta on the turf

Sheriff's listed first time at a new distance as one of the reasons that he didn't want to run in races like the SA Handicap so that is very, very doubtful.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

Who freakin cares if he has a personal agenda about the surface - you think it's a wonderful surface and that fine, so run your horses on it. If he thinks it was a bad decision to run the BC at Santa Anita again and doesn't support it than he can run HIS horse elsewhere. Like he is doing - and doing a damn good job at it.

Do you do what everyone tells you you should do with your horses?

When the best horse in the country skips the championship day because of a personal agenda I think it is something to discuss. Say his personal agenda was that he didnt like Frank Stronach and wont race at his tracks? Would you play a different tune then?

And I think that if most of us had the 8 million to buy her after the Oaks we too could do a fine job with her. It is liking saying Albert Pujols is having a great year because Tony LaRussa bats him third in the lineup. Scuds could manage the team and that guy would hit just as almost any trainer/owner combo could win with RA.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

When the best horse in the country skips the championship day because of a personal agenda I think it is something to discuss. Say his personal agenda was that he didnt like Frank Stronach and wont race at his tracks? Would you play a different tune then?

And I think that if most of us had the 8 million to buy her after the Oaks we too could do a fine job with her. It is liking saying Albert Pujols is having a great year because Tony LaRussa bats him third in the lineup. Scuds could manage the team and that guy would hit just as almost any trainer/owner combo could win with RA.

There are plenty of legit reasons not to run her on Pro Ride. If DrugS thinks she would be buried there is a dam good reason he is saying it. Sometimes horseman and handicappers need to work together. A friend of mine is a terrific handicapper and some horseman use him for advise. I have seen were his advised has made the trainers look very smart.

DrugS maybe a lot of things but he is no dummy when he says she would be trounced on Pro Ride there is some merit to it. I don't know if he is right but I know he is just not saying it to be an idiot.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by freddymo

There are plenty of legit reasons not to run her on Pro Ride. If DrugS thinks she would be buried there is a dam good reason he is saying it. Sometimes horseman and handicappers need to work together. A friend of mine is a terrific handicapper and some horseman use him for advise. I have seen were his advised has made the trainers look very smart.

DrugS maybe a lot of things but he is no dummy when he says she would be trounced on Pro Ride there is some merit to it. I don't know if he is right but I know he is just not saying it to be an idiot.

If Jackson said that after consulting with Drugs he wouldnt run it would have more merit than what he is saying now.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

If Jackson said that after consulting with Drugs he wouldnt run it would have more merit than what he is saying now.

Chuck I like you want to see Rachel run in the Classic but she likely won't. The crime is we have billions of dollars spent on training and racing dirt horses and Championship day is devoid of a dirt race. It's like they canceled the day and made a new one SURPISE. I think Jess thinks he can make a difference and make sure this never happens again. He has done a marvelous job racing her, unfortunately people will remember him for not racing her.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by freddymo

There are plenty of legit reasons not to run her on Pro Ride. If DrugS thinks she would be buried there is a dam good reason he is saying it. Sometimes horseman and handicappers need to work together. A friend of mine is a terrific handicapper and some horseman use him for advise. I have seen were his advised has made the trainers look very smart.

DrugS maybe a lot of things but he is no dummy when he says she would be trounced on Pro Ride there is some merit to it. I don't know if he is right but I know he is just not saying it to be an idiot.

jk DrugS

[Revidere]

Originally Posted by GBBob

I could care less about being on a Top 100 list. That's not the point..it's a personal agenda he has about the surface..nothing more, nothing less

Agreed. And that personal agenda has zero to do with Rachel Alexandra. It has to do with defending Curlin's legacy. A horse who was over the top by Breeder's Cup day. The track was the excuse going into last year and it was the excuse coming out of the race. The track had nothing to do with his loss. He made a huge move to get the lead and hit the wall. Horses who dislike track surfaces do not handle it in fits and starts. I never bought Skip Away's "track" excuse after the 1998 Classic. The horse was beaten four lengths and it had to be the track. He was done in by two long hard campaigns that saw him post bullets in 59 of 64 published works.

By Cup day Curlin was not the same horse. All out to beat Past the Point, less than scintillating effort in the JCGC. It's funny, when it's a horse we like (Curlin) it's considered "professional" or "workmanlike". When it's a horse the majority of people on this board have fallen out of favor with (Zenyatta) it's "boring"

I think he should be at Santa Anita with Rachel. Zenyatta notwithstanding.

[Bobby Fischer]

Originally Posted by Revidere

By Cup day Curlin was not the same horse.

This is the problem with Jackson's sour grapes(and many fans) - Curlin's performance is being judged by his finish position, when in actuality he was compromised by Robbie Albara'duh' while battling two of the world's best horses. It was a extremely strong effort. In spite of the sentiment, Curlin's BCC was actually an indication that Curlin did in fact handle the surface! You simply /can't do that much running on a surface you don't handle. Had he received a world class ride these horses would have dueled late with significantly different energy than what we saw.

Curlin's BCC was arguably his best race of 2008, depending on how you rate his DWC.

I do agree however that some of Curlin's late season efforts were not as impressive as Curlin on cup day or Curlin's better lifetime efforts. Interestingly(well only to a racing-nerd), Curlin's Man O'War turf effort was also highly misconstrued by the public. Red Rocks was able to effectively set an easy pace, well clear of the dueling cheapies. Albaraduh went wider and earlier (foreshadowing the Classic to anyone who would listen). While critics said he hated the turf, he had just run equal to Red Rocks while that rival received his optimum trip. Again counter-indicative of hating the surface.
Curlin almost certainly had a slight preference for dirt, but the deciding factor in the Breeders Cup Classic was not Curlin's preference, rather it was the level of genuine quality in the older handicap division vs the world class intermediate turf stars.


Rachel gives every indication that like most great horses she is versatile enough to run a big race on most surfaces.

[CSC]

[Indian Charlie]

This discussion is about as fruitful as a discussion between Pro Lifers and Pro Choicers.

Come to think of it, those two discussions are pretty similar, save the blood throwing and stuff.