Does Mine That Bird Win Again?

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Who ever thought Mine that Bird was so friggin special.. Other then beating the scary good POTN who has he beatin of quality?

Can't we say the same thing about Rachel Alexandra?

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

Can't we say the same thing about Rachel Alexandra?

I think Munnings is a fast G1 quality sprinter.. Rachel crushes fields.. The Haskel will come back with a very big BSF. I have nothing against Mine That Bird at all.. He is certainly a honest horse and his trainer isn't exactly HOF material..

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by freddymo

I think Munnings is a fast G1 quality sprinter.. Rachel crushes fields.. The Haskel will come back with a very big BSF. I have nothing against Mine That Bird at all.. He is certainly a honest horse and his trainer isn't exactly HOF material..

I'm not suggesting that she's not a special filly, but isn't everyone getting a bit carried away? Putting today's race in context, she had exactly two horses to beat. The first was Munnings, a legitimate sprinter with whom Pletcher was taking a shot by running in a stallion-making race on a typically speed-favoring oval. When the rains came, Pletcher didn't get the track he was looking for, and over which Munnings was not likely to carry his speed 9F (and it will now be back to the original plan and the King's Bishop).

The second horse to beat was Summer Bird, who received a highly questionable ride from Desormeaux. Not only did Desormeaux take this horse out of his normal style of running, but he rushed up on the worst part of the race track. Off that trip, he'll be tough in the Travers, but he had no shot today.

Rachel got a perfect stalking trip on the best part of the race track. Since most media types declared that, if she won the Haskell (a premise that I don't agree with), she'd lock up HOY, I'm now sure that her connections will take the path of least resistance. I'd bet that she has two more races this year: the Personal Ensign and Beldame.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

I'm not suggesting that she's not a special filly, but isn't everyone getting a bit carried away? Putting today's race in context, she had exactly two horses to beat. The first was Munnings, a legitimate sprinter with whom Pletcher was taking a shot by running in a stallion-making race on a typically speed-favoring oval. When the rains came, Pletcher didn't get the track he was looking for, and over which Munnings was not likely to carry his speed 9F (and it will now be back to the original plan and the King's Bishop).

The second horse to beat was Summer Bird, who received a highly questionable ride from Desormeaux. Not only did Desormeaux take this horse out of his normal style of running, but he rushed up on the worst part of the race track. Off that trip, he'll be tough in the Travers, but he had no shot today.

Rachel got a perfect stalking trip on the best part of the race track. Since most media types declared that, if she won the Haskell (a premise that I don't agree with), she'd lock up HOY, I'm now sure that her connections will take the path of least resistance. I'd bet that she has two more races this year: the Personal Ensign and Beldame.

Do you really think KD's ride affected the placings of the top two? Summer Bird was running second either way regardless of tactics.

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Do you really think KD's ride affected the placings of the top two? Summer Bird was running second either way regardless of tactics.

Probably not, but that was one bad ride. The final margin would have likely been different. As it was, Summer Bird had to win a stetch-long duel with Munnings to get second.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

Probably not, but that was one bad ride. The final margin would have likely been different. As it was, Summer Bird had to win a stetch-long duel with Munnings to get second.

So you think he should have taken way off the pace and closed into what would have been pretty soft fractions on that track?

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

So you think he should have taken way off the pace and closed into what would have been pretty soft fractions on that track?

Summer Bird had no business being where Desormeaux placed him, especially with how bad the inside part of the track was today. They went 22.4 and 46.3. On a typical Monmouth day, those might be considered soft fractions. On today's sloppy track, that was not a "soft" pace.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

I'm not suggesting that she's not a special filly, but isn't everyone getting a bit carried away? Putting today's race in context, she had exactly two horses to beat. The first was Munnings, a legitimate sprinter with whom Pletcher was taking a shot by running in a stallion-making race on a typically speed-favoring oval. When the rains came, Pletcher didn't get the track he was looking for, and over which Munnings was not likely to carry his speed 9F (and it will now be back to the original plan and the King's Bishop).

The second horse to beat was Summer Bird, who received a highly questionable ride from Desormeaux. Not only did Desormeaux take this horse out of his normal style of running, but he rushed up on the worst part of the race track. Off that trip, he'll be tough in the Travers, but he had no shot today.

Rachel got a perfect stalking trip on the best part of the race track. Since most media types declared that, if she won the Haskell (a premise that I don't agree with), she'd lock up HOY, I'm now sure that her connections will take the path of least resistance. I'd bet that she has two more races this year: the Personal Ensign and Beldame.

Paralysis by analysis... she ran a mile in 1:34 1/5 without urging when the other stakes mile splits were 1:37 1/5, 1:37 1/5, 1:37 4/5, 1:36 3/5, and 1:36 3/5. It was another incredible performance from the best horse in the world.

Originally Posted by dalakhani

So you think he should have taken way off the pace and closed into what would have been pretty soft fractions on that track?

Those were wicked fractions. Check the other races on the card. Summer Bird was running second either way, he's probably the #2 or #3 horse in this crop anyways...

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by philcski

Paralysis by analysis... she ran a mile in 1:34 1/5 without urging when the other stakes mile splits were 1:37 1/5, 1:37 1/5, 1:37 4/5, 1:36 3/5, and 1:36 3/5. It was another incredible performance from the best horse in the world.



Those were wicked fractions. Check the other races on the card. Summer Bird was running second either way, he's probably the #2 or #3 horse in this crop anyways...

He forced those fractions. If he doesnt come up on the inside, maybe munnings relaxes and maybe rachel sits right off of him until the stretch. No?

[philcski]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

He forced those fractions. If he doesnt come up on the inside, maybe munnings relaxes and maybe rachel sits right off of him until the stretch. No?

And then what changes in the order of finish? Rachel still wins by as much as she pleases, and Munnings and Summer Bird battle for 2nd. I thought both of them ran really well anyways, Munnings stretching out to a distance his trainer didn't think he could get and Summer Bird doing something different by staying close to the pace and on the inside which was the worst part of the track.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by philcski

And then what changes in the order of finish? Rachel still wins by as much as she pleases, and Munnings and Summer Bird battle for 2nd. I thought both of them ran really well anyways, Munnings stretching out to a distance his trainer didn't think he could get and Summer Bird doing something different by staying close to the pace and on the inside which was the worst part of the track.

Agreed. Very impressed with all three. Im still waiting to see that full field pitting Rachel against Zenyatta.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

I'm not suggesting that she's not a special filly, but isn't everyone getting a bit carried away? Putting today's race in context, she had exactly two horses to beat. The first was Munnings, a legitimate sprinter with whom Pletcher was taking a shot by running in a stallion-making race on a typically speed-favoring oval. When the rains came, Pletcher didn't get the track he was looking for, and over which Munnings was not likely to carry his speed 9F (and it will now be back to the original plan and the King's Bishop).

The second horse to beat was Summer Bird, who received a highly questionable ride from Desormeaux. Not only did Desormeaux take this horse out of his normal style of running, but he rushed up on the worst part of the race track. Off that trip, he'll be tough in the Travers, but he had no shot today.

Rachel got a perfect stalking trip on the best part of the race track. Since most media types declared that, if she won the Haskell (a premise that I don't agree with), she'd lock up HOY, I'm now sure that her connections will take the path of least resistance. I'd bet that she has two more races this year: the Personal Ensign and Beldame.

You know all of what you posted is 100% valid.. Sometimes you can only beat who they put on the track in front of you. I can't suggest that she had a Rags to Riches type Santa Anita race.. DrugS can post all the specifics but we realized Rags was extraordinary when she crushed on a super wide speed favoring surface one day.. I think Rachel is beating anything and everything that they put in front of her. I doubt Zenyatta offers much of a challenge and nothing in the handicap division appears to be overwhelming either. Seriously it's not a knock against her that nothing seems on or at her abilty level to date. Plus the BSF figs appear to be going forward.. What can she do try the turf and go in the Arc? lol

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by freddymo

You know all of what you posted is 100% valid.. Sometimes you can only beat who they put on the track in front of you. I can't suggest that she had a Rags to Riches type Santa Anita race.. DrugS can post all the specifics but we realized Rags was extraordinary when she crushed on a super wide speed favoring surface one day.. I think Rachel is beating anything and everything that they put in front of her. I doubt Zenyatta offers much of a challenge and nothing in the handicap division appears to be overwhelming either. Seriously it's not a knock against her that nothing seems on or at her abilty level to date. Plus the BSF figs appear to be going forward.. What can she do try the turf and go in the Arc? lol

I agree, but today I guy said to me this afternoon that Rachel's better than Ruffian. Now, I don't know what Ruffian beat (before my time), but I do know that the fields that Rachel has beaten don't stack up to what Winning Colors defeated in the Derby (Forty Niner, Risen Star, Private Terms, Seeking the Gold, etc.) or what Rags to Riches defeated in the Belmont (Curlin, Hard Spun).

While I think that Rachel's connections deserve credit for running her against the boys, unless they run her in the Travers, which I highly doubt, they will have opted for the more opportunistic spot each time they tried the boys. Under the circumstances, the Preakness was an easier task than the Belmont, and the Haskell a softer assignment than the Travers. It's a shame that she won't face Zenyatta in a fairly run race.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

I agree, but today I guy said to me this afternoon that Rachel's better than Ruffian. Now, I don't know what Ruffian beat (before my time), but I do know that the fields that Rachel has beaten don't stack up to what Winning Colors defeated in the Derby (Forty Niner, Risen Star, Private Terms, Seeking the Gold, etc.) or what Rags to Riches defeated in the Belmont (Curlin, Hard Spun).

While I think that Rachel's connections deserve credit for running her against the boys, unless they run her in the Travers, which I highly doubt, they will have opted for the more opportunistic spot each time they tried the boys. Under the circumstances, the Preakness was an easier task than the Belmont, and the Haskell a softer assignment than the Travers. It's a shame that she won't face Zenyatta in a fairly run race.

this is why i try not to compare horses that are still running with those that retired years ago-you know how those from the past finished up, as well as their competition. rachel and company are still a work in progress, and it'll be a few years before we know what their true spot will be.
by the same token, i can't recall the last horse i saw that won with such aplomb in top races vs the best of its peers. rachel doesn't just win, much of the time it's an annihilation-and as i used to read back when, if a horse hasn't got competition they still have the clock. rachel seems otherwordly right now-she's certainly the best 3 yo this year by a wide margin. historically? we need to be patient on that score.

a great horse is a horse that transcends time-a horse that's used as a measuring stick for horses that come later. if in ten, twenty years, people say 'he/she's the best since rachel' then you'll know she was great because she stood the ultimate test-'what have you done lately?' the truly special ones remain in the memory.

[SOREHOOF]

She hasn't beaten Quality Road yet! Track record at Saratoga pretty much in hand. I thought she might scare away the competition in the Travers, but it might shape up even better than I hoped.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Danzig

this is why i try not to compare horses that are still running with those that retired years ago-you know how those from the past finished up, as well as their competition. rachel and company are still a work in progress, and it'll be a few years before we know what their true spot will be.
by the same token, i can't recall the last horse i saw that won with such aplomb in top races vs the best of its peers. rachel doesn't just win, much of the time it's an annihilation-and as i used to read back when, if a horse hasn't got competition they still have the clock. rachel seems otherwordly right now-she's certainly the best 3 yo this year by a wide margin. historically? we need to be patient on that score.

a great horse is a horse that transcends time-a horse that's used as a measuring stick for horses that come later. if in ten, twenty years, people say 'he/she's the best since rachel' then you'll know she was great because she stood the ultimate test-'what have you done lately?' the truly special ones remain in the memory.

Unfortunately for her, as good as she's been, and I think she's great, she hasn't been able to face the best of her peers. I Want Revenge, Quality Road, The Pamplemousse, Old Fashioned....all out before she could face them.