There's no stars in racing? Is that right?

[CSC]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Seriously? Jeter is arguably the third or 4th best SS ever. Outside of Honus Wagner, ARod, Ernie Banks and maybe Robin Yount (who played 1/2 his career in CF) who is better? Jeter's defense has slipped but the majority of his career was fine.

Interesting I never was a huge fan of Jeter's, granted he was very good but playing in N.Y I thought he got alot of press. In my time prior to the explosion of steroids, I thought Cal Ripkin was the best SS I have ever seen, all people seem to remember was his games streak and he more or less looked like a 3rd baseman playing short, but he had a great glove and natural power for a guy that played short. Plus you could always count on 162 games a year from Cal.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by CSC

Interesting I never was a huge fan of Jeter's, granted he was very good but playing in N.Y I thought he got alot of press. In my time prior to the explosion of steroids, I thought Cal Ripkin was the best SS I have ever seen, all people seem to remember was his games streak and he more or less looked like a 3rd baseman playing short, but he had a great glove and natural power for a guy that played short. Plus you could always count on 162 games a year from Cal.

You are correct, Ripken should have been in there

[CSC]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

You are correct, Ripken should have been in there

Interesting thought who was the best 2nd Baseman in history? This one should generate alot of names.

For me Roberto Alomar would be right there on the shortlist.

[slotdirt]

Jeter is a good one, and will probably be in the HOF, no doubt, but he's never been a great defensive shortstop - never. He's made the highlight reel plays in the playoffs (the non-slide Jeremy Giambi toss, the Hollywood-esque jump into the stands, etc.), but as an everyday shortstop, he consistently has ranked as below average in every measurable defensive rating.

How one makes a list of shortstops that doesn't include Cal Ripken above Jeter is beyond me. Don't get me wrong, Cal was a lot more hype than substance, but the guy could hit in his day and was more than adequate defensively on a ton of really, really mediocre Orioles teams.

Don't get me started on Trammell (or Whitaker). If you stack up Trammell with the SS members of the HOF currently, he is at least in the top half. Trammell's 1987 season is still one of the finest non-roided up seasons for a shortstop in baseball history. Whitaker getting dropped from the ballot after his first year of eligibility while Ryne Sandberg gets in on the second or third ballot is one of the true travesties of Hall of Fame voting of the last 15 years.

Now, talking about the best second baseman ever - that's tough. Roberto Alomar definitely deserves some consideration, but his career ended so amazingly quickly, he's really hard to judge. I think you'd have to look to an old timer like Rogers Hornsby (highest career AVG, OBP, HR, and SLG for a second baseman) as your all-time best.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

Now, talking about the best second baseman ever - that's tough. Roberto Alomar definitely deserves some consideration, but his career ended so amazingly quickly, he's really hard to judge. I think you'd have to look to an old timer like Rogers Hornsby (highest career AVG, OBP, HR, and SLG for a second baseman) as your all-time best.

That would be the only blemish in his career, alot of fans would probably be surprised to look at his career numbers, I expect Joe Morgan's name to be included in the discussion and his and Alomar's numbers are very close. However I would give the edge to Alomar. The one thing about Alomar is he played his best yrs in Canada and Joe played for the Big Red Machine, Alomar won multiple golden gloves, could beat you with his glove, bat, or on the bases. Seriously other than spitting on an Umpire, he should be a guaranteed 1st ballot Hall of famer.

[slotdirt]

Joe Morgan? He gets dismissed for actually not being as great as he was made out to be and more importantly, for being the absolute worst baseball announcer in the history of the game. I'd take Alomar over Joe Morgan 13 times out of 10. Alomar isn't going to be a first ballot HOFer not because of the spitting incident, but because of the way his career ended. There was no denouement; just crash and burn.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

Joe Morgan? He gets dismissed for actually not being as great as he was made out to be and more importantly, for being the absolute worst baseball announcer in the history of the game. I'd take Alomar over Joe Morgan 13 times out of 10. Alomar isn't going to be a first ballot HOFer not because of the spitting incident, but because of the way his career ended. There was no denouement; just crash and burn.

He was great and I despised the Big Red machine.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by CSC

That would be the only blemish in his career, alot of fans would probably be surprised to look at his career numbers, I expect Joe Morgan's name to be included in the discussion and his and Alomar's numbers are very close. However I would give the edge to Alomar. The one thing about Alomar is he played his best yrs in Canada and Joe played for the Big Red Machine, Alomar won multiple golden gloves, could beat you with his glove, bat, or on the bases. Seriously other than spitting on an Umpire, he should be a guaranteed 1st ballot Hall of famer.

Morgan was a better player IMO.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

Jeter is a good one, and will probably be in the HOF, no doubt, but he's never been a great defensive shortstop - never. He's made the highlight reel plays in the playoffs (the non-slide Jeremy Giambi toss, the Hollywood-esque jump into the stands, etc.), but as an everyday shortstop, he consistently has ranked as below average in every measurable defensive rating.

How one makes a list of shortstops that doesn't include Cal Ripken above Jeter is beyond me. Don't get me wrong, Cal was a lot more hype than substance, but the guy could hit in his day and was more than adequate defensively on a ton of really, really mediocre Orioles teams.

Don't get me started on Trammell (or Whitaker). If you stack up Trammell with the SS members of the HOF currently, he is at least in the top half. Trammell's 1987 season is still one of the finest non-roided up seasons for a shortstop in baseball history. Whitaker getting dropped from the ballot after his first year of eligibility while Ryne Sandberg gets in on the second or third ballot is one of the true travesties of Hall of Fame voting of the last 15 years.

Now, talking about the best second baseman ever - that's tough. Roberto Alomar definitely deserves some consideration, but his career ended so amazingly quickly, he's really hard to judge. I think you'd have to look to an old timer like Rogers Hornsby (highest career AVG, OBP, HR, and SLG for a second baseman) as your all-time best.

I did screw up by forgetting Ripken. Jeter was good enough defensively that it doesnt subtract from his overall rating as a player. Trammell is a borderline case. he compares well to some SS candidates from the earlier years but in modern terms he is questionable. Hornsby is a clear choice at 2nd.

[Bobby Fischer]

Originally Posted by CSC

Interesting thought who was the best 2nd Baseman in history? This one should generate alot of names.

Rogers Hornsby was the best.

He was the greatest right handed hitter of all time

[slotdirt]

One could make a case for Nap Lajoie - I mean, Cleveland did name their team at the time after him and all.

I can tell you that there are a gang of players from that era that have no business being in the Hall of Fame that could have held the jock strap of Jeter, Trammell, Larkin, or Dave Concepcion for that matter.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

One could make a case for Nap Lajoie - I mean, Cleveland did name their team at the time after him and all.

I can tell you that there are a gang of players from that era that have no business being in the Hall of Fame that could have held the jock strap of Jeter, Trammell, Larkin, or Dave Concepcion for that matter.

You know from personal observation?

[slotdirt]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

You know from personal observation?

No, but even considering the changes in eras, I don't see how anybody could logically argue that Phil Rizzuto, Johnny Evers, or Bid McPhee were truly HOF caliber players.

[Bobby Fischer]

as for stars in racing

The biggest thing IMO is that the triple Crown stars retire if they happen to be true stars, moreso than the durability issue.

ACTIVE PROMOTION

There isn't enough creative promotion in racing. When you do have a two horses like Big Brown and Curlin healthy at the same time, you have to get them in the ring together. You just can't wait for a race like the Classic to come up and draw both stars. There has to be a race made for them and they have to draw enough others to get a field of 8 or 10.
Creative promotion. Money. etc...
If you build it [these matches] they will come

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by Bobby Fischer

as for stars in racing

The biggest thing IMO is that the triple Crown stars retire if they happen to be true stars, moreso than the durability issue.

ACTIVE PROMOTION

There isn't enough creative promotion in racing. When you do have a two horses like Big Brown and Curlin healthy at the same time, you have to get them in the ring together. You just can't wait for a race like the Classic to come up and draw both stars. There has to be a race made for them and they have to draw enough others to get a field of 8 or 10.
Creative promotion. Money. etc...
If you build it [these matches] they will come

Thanks for bringing it back to the horseys!

[King Glorious]

All I can say is that when the NFL went on strike some years ago and they played a few games with replacement players, I watched but I didn't pretend that the players were anywhere near the level of the NFL guys. I wasn't going to sit there and appreciate them for what they were, accept that they were as good as we had at the moment, and be happy with it. We want to see the best. Simple as that. You can't argue in one breath that we can't compare the horses of today to the horses of yesteryear because they aren't as good as they used to be and we should just embrace what we have......then in the next breath argue that we shouldn't change the TC because it should be as it always has been and we shouldn't accept a watered down champion. Which way do you want it? If you are acknowledging that the good horses of today aren't as good as they used to be, why are you so intent on continuing to ask them to do the same things as those before? If you are going to hold the Big Brown's and Mine that Bird's to the same standards as the Secretariat's and Affirmed's, then how can you fault us for holding the champions of today to the same standards as the champions of the past? People argue that you can't change the TC because of tradition but then you are telling us to forget the past and accept them for what they are today.

[ninetoone]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

All I can say is that when the NFL went on strike some years ago and they played a few games with replacement players, I watched but I didn't pretend that the players were anywhere near the level of the NFL guys. I wasn't going to sit there and appreciate them for what they were, accept that they were as good as we had at the moment, and be happy with it. We want to see the best. Simple as that. You can't argue in one breath that we can't compare the horses of today to the horses of yesteryear because they aren't as good as they used to be and we should just embrace what we have......then in the next breath argue that we shouldn't change the TC because it should be as it always has been and we shouldn't accept a watered down champion. Which way do you want it? If you are acknowledging that the good horses of today aren't as good as they used to be, why are you so intent on continuing to ask them to do the same things as those before? If you are going to hold the Big Brown's and Mine that Bird's to the same standards as the Secretariat's and Affirmed's, then how can you fault us for holding the champions of today to the same standards as the champions of the past? People argue that you can't change the TC because of tradition but then you are telling us to forget the past and accept them for what they are today.

I hope the NFL goes on strike again. Maybe the Skins can win another Superbowl.