friesan fire excuse

[Bobby Fischer]

Originally Posted by booner

Just wondering doc....this injury was not bad enough to keep him from working 5f in less than 1:00 before the Preakness? That was a very solid workout, and one that led me to think he was fine.

If this is the case, I would almost compare this to a cartilage tear I had when I was younger. I could run a mile with no problem, but the swelling would start and the next 2.1 miles I ran would be very rough. Would this be the case with FF?

I'm just being Curious George here.......

Hard to know...

Sure it could be like that. Horses can overcome a number of problems for 4 or 5 furlongs that don't start to hamper them until a mile or so...

also as a former athlete you or I probably have had our share of hairline fractures or even small bone chips. Many athletes have this, a jammed finger could lead to a hairline fracture, distance running could lead to a small stress fracture in your shin or something...

Originally Posted by Lou Gehrig biography / non related to his ALS

Later in his career Gehrig's hands were X-rayed, and doctors were able to spot 17 different fractures that had "healed" while Gehrig continued to play.

[Bobby Fischer]

On this whole conspiracy thing - sheesh guys. It's not as bad as Pace Advantage over here, but not everything is a conspiracy! Some of these things happen at face value.


The horse got roughed up bad in the Derby.
When he came out, the primary concern was getting the hoof to attach back. They probably did the general "testing" for heat on his legs and it probably came back ok. His hoof healed quickly and they were probably excited and satisfied. They breezed him and he responded very well. Thats about it.

After the Preakness they went over with a "fine tooth comb" looking for problems/excuses which brings us up to date.


As far as being an excuse for his poor efforts - I think the Derby was a bad enough trip that he needs no excuse for that race. Ideally he would have recovered and started picking up horses late to get up for 5th or 6th, but there was really no shame in being eased home at that point. Anyone who tossed Friesan Fire "because of" the Derby should consider the proverbial "giving up the game".


In the Preakness he had another pretty bad trip. He broke to his knees. Instead of settling 5 lengths off the pace where the setup for him was more reasonable, Saez called on him for run early rushing up. At the same time Big Drama broke Friesan Fire's momentum and bore out on him. He had to fight through Big Drama early, while chasing a pace which annihilated the other chasers. However in the Preakness you would have liked to have seen him show some resistance, which he didn't.

Horses come back and run big races all the time after getting two bad trips in a row, some at good prices. The hardest part about keeping faith in that kind of situation is that with Friesan Fire, his nightmare trips coincided with his first true class test, and he didn't show any extraordinary signs of resistance.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Bobby Fischer

On this whole conspiracy thing - sheesh guys. It's not as bad as Pace Advantage over here, but not everything is a conspiracy! Some of these things happen at face value.


The horse got roughed up bad in the Derby.
When he came out, the primary concern was getting the hoof to attach back. They probably did the general "testing" for heat on his legs and it probably came back ok. His hoof healed quickly and they were probably excited and satisfied. They breezed him and he responded very well. Thats about it.

After the Preakness they went over with a "fine tooth comb" looking for problems/excuses which brings us up to date.


As far as being an excuse for his poor efforts - I think the Derby was a bad enough trip that he needs no excuse for that race. Ideally he would have recovered and started picking up horses late to get up for 5th or 6th, but there was really no shame in being eased home at that point. Anyone who tossed Friesan Fire "because of" the Derby should consider the proverbial "giving up the game".


In the Preakness he had another pretty bad trip. He broke to his knees. Instead of settling 5 lengths off the pace where the setup for him was more reasonable, Saez called on him for run early rushing up. At the same time Big Drama broke Friesan Fire's momentum and bore out on him. He had to fight through Big Drama early, while chasing a pace which annihilated the other chasers. However in the Preakness you would have liked to have seen him show some resistance, which he didn't.

Horses come back and run big races all the time after getting two bad trips in a row, some at good prices. The hardest part about keeping faith in that kind of situation is that with Friesan Fire, his nightmare trips coincided with his first true class test, and he didn't show any extraordinary signs of resistance.

i seriously doubt that his grabbed quarter was bad at all-he lost no training time, so it couldn't have been serious. if it was serious, then they had no business running him back. i think that injury was overblown and had no bearing on his derby loss.
the horse ran 1 1/16th in his last derby start. how they thought that as a final prep, and seven weeks to the derby was the way to get that colt prepared to run 10f i don't know-imo that's a far bigger reason for his lackluster performance than any supposed quarter injury.

[Bobby Fischer]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i seriously doubt that his grabbed quarter was bad at all-he lost no training time, so it couldn't have been serious. if it was serious, then they had no business running him back. i think that injury was overblown and had no bearing on his derby loss.
the horse ran 1 1/16th in his last derby start. how they thought that as a final prep, and seven weeks to the derby was the way to get that colt prepared to run 10f i don't know-imo that's a far bigger reason for his lackluster performance than any supposed quarter injury.

the injury was pretty much secondary in the derby to the trip (which technically did happen to include getting stepped on and later kicked).

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Bobby Fischer

the injury was pretty much secondary in the derby to the trip (which technically did happen to include getting stepped on and later kicked).

he may have had a cut here or a scrape there-but it wasn't worth mentioning, and certainly wasn't an excuse considering the following two weeks.
oh--but there was the 'miraculous healing'-i forgot that part. i think jones spouted off just after the race because he felt humiliated, and made things out to be far worse than they appeared. reminds me of when smith got off a horse-maybe giacomo-after a loss and said he thought the horse displaced. felt he had to give a reason. the trainer said nothing like that had happened, that the horse was fine.

[Bobby Fischer]

Originally Posted by Danzig

he may have had a cut here or a scrape there-but it wasn't worth mentioning, and certainly wasn't an excuse considering the following two weeks.
oh--but there was the 'miraculous healing'-i forgot that part. i think jones spouted off just after the race because he felt humiliated, and made things out to be far worse than they appeared. reminds me of when smith got off a horse-maybe giacomo-after a loss and said he thought the horse displaced. felt he had to give a reason. the trainer said nothing like that had happened, that the horse was fine.

i think you are the missing the point. No one can draw any conclusions about the 7 week layoff, from the performance in the derby because the trip was so bad.

[sumitas]

That's a challenge horse racing has ...to detect these types of fractures before a race so that the horse can be scratched and prescribed rest .

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Bobby Fischer

i think you are the missing the point. No one can draw any conclusions about the 7 week layoff, from the performance in the derby because the trip was so bad.

the only thing i've mentioned regarding the seven week layoff was the remark that maybe that indicated a problem with the horse physically that they didn't tell us at the time. but indian charlie says that's not the case. i think there are several reasons why friesan fire didn't run well-the layoff didn't help in my opinion. i think the main reason he finished far back is that the race went quicker early than many he had run this year, so of course he'd get left behind. the guy wrote in bloodhorse when making his pick (this was the magazine so i can't look up his name, exact quote because i'm at work) but he referenced the faster pace expected in the derby than what FF had faced in La this spring, that it caused doubt in his mind because of that.
at any rate, it's hard to say for sure exactly what is going on with all the trainers speak. all the horses do well before, but they're full of excuses after. but, my main point was that too many are blaming injuries suffered in the running of the derby-and my question is just how serious could they possibly have been since it didn't knock him out of training or running two weeks later? it's my opinion based on what they did after that the injury was dramatically overblown.
the horse ran well training up to the preakness, so i would imagine the injuries occurred during the running of the race.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i seriously doubt that his grabbed quarter was bad at all-he lost no training time, so it couldn't have been serious. if it was serious, then they had no business running him back. i think that injury was overblown and had no bearing on his derby loss.the horse ran 1 1/16th in his last derby start. how they thought that as a final prep, and seven weeks to the derby was the way to get that colt prepared to run 10f i don't know-imo that's a far bigger reason for his lackluster performance than any supposed quarter injury.

Didn't he also come out of the Derby, not only with the quarter grab, but with cuts on three legs, and a piece of vetwrap from another horses' leg wrap in his shoe? This horse was validly banged up in the Derby, from what I've read <g>

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Riot

Didn't he also come out of the Derby, not only with the quarter grab, but with cuts on three legs, and a piece of vetwrap from another horses' leg wrap in his shoe? This horse was validly banged up in the Derby, from what I've read <g>

one more time.

if his injuries were so dammed serious, why did he miss NO training and run back in two weeks?! either they did him a disservice in running him back, or his 'injuries' were overblown. i don't know why i'm still having to explain that point.

there is no way he was that banged up considering the fourteen days after.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Danzig

one more time.

if his injuries were so dammed serious, why did he miss NO training and run back in two weeks?! either they did him a disservice in running him back, or his 'injuries' were overblown. i don't know why i'm still having to explain that point.

there is no way he was that banged up considering the fourteen days after.

You might consider that your two options are not the only possibility.

If you are a horse are running in a race, and your legs are getting repeatedly struck and stung by horseshoes, other horses legs, you might back off and not do your best at that moment, too. Yet come out of the race cut and bruised, even with a stinging quarter grab, but pretty much are okay in a day or so when the cuts heal and the immediate bruising to the bone is cooled and the anti-inflammatories are on board. Especially when they check you out and you x-ray sound.

I don't know why I'm having to explain this point.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Riot

I don't know why I'm having to explain this point.

I wouldn't mind if you stopped, ma'am.

I think my brain has a stress fracture now. But I don't have the money to find out.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Riot

You might consider that your two options are not the only possibility.

If you are a horse are running in a race, and your legs are getting repeatedly struck and stung by horseshoes, other horses legs, you might back off and not do your best at that moment, too. Yet come out of the race cut and bruised, even with a stinging quarter grab, but pretty much are okay in a day or so when the cuts heal and the immediate bruising to the bone is cooled and the anti-inflammatories are on board. Especially when they check you out and you x-ray sound.

I don't know why I'm having to explain this point.

probably because i'm stubborn and hard-headed. and til your post, no one had put it that way. thanks.