Steve Haskin's latest: 'Leave Crown Alone'

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

There was a time when John Shirreffs was bar none the best trainer in the game with first time starters .. he made someone like a Wesley Ward look like an ultra conservative trainer who's MO is bringing them along slowly.

Those 505 horses he had would run their eyes out on debut and never develop much. Once he lost 505, it was as if he became a much different kind of trainer.

Proving how good a horseman he is and that trainers operate in response to owners' interests, instructions, demands... Or in the case of Shirreffs, Howard and McGaughey, at the luxury of having owners who can afford to be patient with the horses they breed or buy.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Proving how good a horseman he is and that trainers operate in response to owners' interests, instructions, demands... Or in the case of Shirreffs, Howard and McGaughey, at the luxury of having owners who can afford to be patient with the horses they breed or buy.

And isn't that type of owner more of an anomaly in today's racing world? What is the likelihood racing is going to go back to where that owner is the norm? it appears to this non-insider that racing is going further and further away from that type and more toward the IEAH's of the world.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

And isn't that type of owner more of an anomaly in today's racing world? What is the likelihood racing is going to go back to where that owner is the norm? it appears to this non-insider that racing is going further and further away from that type and more toward the IEAH's of the world.

not going to happen. i think things began to change when the commercial breeders took over. instead of racing being about breeding a good horse to further the breed, it has become purely about the bottom line. that's why you have so much emphasis on precocity, so you can 'get out' on a horse early. that's also why you have so many early retirements-a desire to get a horse in the shed before a defeat can spell disaster for his stud fee. it's no longer about runners being a showcase for a stallion, but about finding a runner who can wow someone enough to demand five figures at stud-altho six would be better...that also explains the increasing shuttling of stallions, which is no better for a stud than having 170 mare books.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

And isn't that type of owner more of an anomaly in today's racing world? What is the likelihood racing is going to go back to where that owner is the norm? it appears to this non-insider that racing is going further and further away from that type and more toward the IEAH's of the world.

I'd say we actually are headed back in trhe right direction somewhat, though I would need Chuck and similar breeding business participants to support my impulse... There's a very wide array of ownership these days, and there seem to be more operations than in recent memory that are assembling broodmare bands and producing homebreds to race, and sell, with eyes on quality. There are operators/operations like Satish Sanan (Padua), Ro Parra (Millenium), Nathan Fox (Richland Hills), Ahmet Zayat, etc., who are breeding, racing, selling, etc., as well as Brereton Jones, Charlotte Weber, Ned Evans, Heilingbrodt, The Mosses, et al, off the top of my head. Stonerside was until selling out. I guess Jess Jackson is trying to as well... Do they equal Calumet, Claiborne, Darby Dan, the Phipps operation, etc.? Maybe...

As an aside, an IEAH isn't really a negative at all in the overall equation. They are buying ready-made horses as investments hoping to get on to 'syndicatable' sires that will have long, profitable shed careers. They did buy Stardom Bound of course, (hoping for glory but with obvious fall-back potential as marketable broodmare), and have geldings in their racing operation too.. But since they are looking for sire material for the most part, they aren't looking first and foremost at quick return type horses that for the last 15 years have ben defined as 'win early' types. And they are overpaying for horses which can only help re-circulate investment dollars back into the industry. Remember that the horses that they buy have likely been through the breeding/auction, system perhaps as pinhooks or whatever. So if they get bought another time, it's just plus revenue into the greater horse business money pool.

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by Kasept

As an aside, an IEAH isn't really a negative at all in the overall equation. They are buying ready-made horses as investments hoping to get on to 'syndicatable' sires that will have long, profitable shed careers. They did buy Stardom Bound of course, (hoping for glory but with obvious fall-back potential as marketable broodmare), and have geldings in their racing operation too.. But since they are looking for sire material for the most part, they aren't looking first and foremost at quick return type horses that for the last 15 years have ben defined as 'win early' types. And they are overpaying for horses which can only help re-circulate investment dollars back into the industry. Remember that the horses that they buy have likely been through the breeding/auction, system perhaps as pinhooks or whatever. So if they get bought another time, it's just plus revenue into the greater horse business money pool.

Actually, it seems as if IEAH is just buying "race horses," not investing in potential stallions. Perhaps with the exception of some of their European-bought horses (like Frost Giant and Plan), most of their purchases don't have stallion pedigrees, and for that reason, can be bought by a racing operation for more "reasonable" prices: Benny the Bull (by Lucky Lionel); Kip Deville (Kipling); Big Brown (Boundary); and even I Want Revenge (Stephen Got Even) to a large degree. The lack of commercial stallion appeal is probably why Kip Deville stayed in training, and Benny the Bull is being brought out of retirement. Things may change as a result of the downturn in the stallion end of the business, but the really well-bred horses are always likely to be snatched up by the Darleys and Coolmores more so than an outfit like IEAH.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

Actually, it seems as if IEAH is just buying "race horses," not investing in potential stallions. Perhaps with the exception of some of their European-bought horses (like Frost Giant and Plan), most of their purchases don't have stallion pedigrees, and for that reason, can be bought by a racing operation for more "reasonable" prices: Benny the Bull (by Lucky Lionel); Kip Deville (Kipling); Big Brown (Boundary); and even I Want Revenge (Stephen Got Even) to a large degree. The lack of commercial stallion appeal is probably why Kip Deville stayed in training, and Benny the Bull is being brought out of retirement. Things may change as a result of the downturn in the stallion end of the business, but the really well-bred horses are always likely to be snatched up by the Darleys and Coolmores more so than an outfit like IEAH.

P6..

Here's the thing.. If they aren't fishing for a stallion success, how can they justify the expenses of their purchases? They can't make back on track what they're spending, on average.. No?

(And as a PS, aren't they welcome to all the Kip Devilles and Benny the Bulls they can find from original owners?)

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by Kasept

P6..

Here's the thing.. If they aren't fishing for a stallion success, how can they justify the expenses of their purchases? They can't make back on track what they're spending, on average.. No?

(And as a PS, aren't they welcome to all the Kip Devilles and Benny the Bulls they can find from original owners?)

My sense with IEAH is that it's now about being on the stage. (I'm assuming that Iavarone is living large, essentially on other people's money.) How else could you justify the purchase price for a filly like Stardom Bound, especially if they recirculate the money like most "racing" partnerships by selling the fillies/mares at the conclusion of their racing careers, or the reported price for I Want Revenge? With I Want Revenge's pedigree, at the numbers being bandied about for their 50% interest, the only way that they could get out financially was by winning the Derby, and we know how that went.

When IEAH was talking about the idea of a "thoroughbred hedge fund," I suppose that they may have been hoping to find potential stallions, but most of the horses that they bought did not "check the boxes" for future stallion success. That's why they couldn't buy horses like Majestic Warrior, Street Sense or Hard Spun. If they thought that they were going to make stallions out of horses like Kip Deville and Benny the Bull, then they were sadly mistaken, IMO, and subsequently learned that lesson (although I'm sure that those were very successful purchases, both financially and from a publicity standpoint, for them.)

As for Kip Deville, I'm sure the guy who bought him for $7,000 at Timonium as a 2YO and was racing him in Texas as a 3YO has few regrets about his sale of that horse.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

My sense with IEAH is that it's now about being on the stage. (I'm assuming that Iavarone is living large, essentially on other people's money.) How else could you justify the purchase price for a filly like Stardom Bound, especially if they recirculate the money like most "racing" partnerships by selling the fillies/mares at the conclusion of their racing careers, or the reported price for I Want Revenge? With I Want Revenge's pedigree, at the numbers being bandied about for their 50% interest, the only way that they could get out financially was by winning the Derby, and we know how that went.

When IEAH was talking about the idea of a "thoroughbred hedge fund," I suppose that they may have been hoping to find potential stallions, but most of the horses that they bought did not "check the boxes" for future stallion success. That's why they couldn't buy horses like Majestic Warrior, Street Sense or Hard Spun. If they thought that they were going to make stallions out of horses like Kip Deville and Benny the Bull, then they were sadly mistaken, IMO, and subsequently learned that lesson (although I'm sure that those were very successful purchases, both financially and from a publicity standpoint, for them.)

As for Kip Deville, I'm sure the guy who bought him for $7,000 at Timonium as a 2YO and was racing him in Texas as a 3YO has few regrets about his sale of that horse.

they're a big time partnership aren't they? they can afford to risk big purchases because they have several people sharing the expense. big brown is footing the bill for them right now on horses like stardom bound. they better hope he turns out to be a good sire, or they may have to cut back on their spending a bit.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Kasept

I'd say we actually are headed back in trhe right direction somewhat, though I would need Chuck and similar breeding business participants to support my impulse... There's a very wide array of ownership these days, and there seem to be more operations than in recent memory that are assembling broodmare bands and producing homebreds to race, and sell, with eyes on quality. There are operators/operations like Satish Sanan (Padua), Ro Parra (Millenium), Nathan Fox (Richland Hills), Ahmet Zayat, etc., who are breeding, racing, selling, etc., as well as Brereton Jones, Charlotte Weber, Ned Evans, Heilingbrodt, The Mosses, et al, off the top of my head. Stonerside was until selling out. I guess Jess Jackson is trying to as well... Do they equal Calumet, Claiborne, Darby Dan, the Phipps operation, etc.? Maybe...

As an aside, an IEAH isn't really a negative at all in the overall equation. They are buying ready-made horses as investments hoping to get on to 'syndicatable' sires that will have long, profitable shed careers. They did buy Stardom Bound of course, (hoping for glory but with obvious fall-back potential as marketable broodmare), and have geldings in their racing operation too.. But since they are looking for sire material for the most part, they aren't looking first and foremost at quick return type horses that for the last 15 years have ben defined as 'win early' types. And they are overpaying for horses which can only help re-circulate investment dollars back into the industry. Remember that the horses that they buy have likely been through the breeding/auction, system perhaps as pinhooks or whatever. So if they get bought another time, it's just plus revenue into the greater horse business money pool.

The vast majority of theories about breeding, its course, its flaws, etc are ridiculous including many found in this thread. There are people within the breeding industry that are espousing ridiculous theories to further their own agenda.