kickbacks alleged in suit

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

The above is an example of how it works most of the time.....people would be shocked if I mentioned names of trainers and bloodstock agents that I have a VERY knowledgable account of them pulling these kinds of shady deals.....shocked I tell you...I could even nae the sales, the horses and the way it was done - but I obviously would never do that here....I acknowledge these accounts on this forum just to let you understand how FURIOUS I get when I hear or see it happen....

It is the single biggest thing wrong with our industry today IMO...OWNERS PROTECTION (we don't do enough of it) these guys screw (gentle term) the very people that fnd the game and personally patron them as trainers and keep them in business...How cold is that?

An absolute cancer to our game and it WILL eventually kill our game...mark it down, unless something changes....Think about it for a minute...There are too few wealthy persons that are eligible to own horses anyway - say maybe the top 3-to-5 % people in the country and less in the world (percentage wise)....Now, tell these owners - many of whom made their fortunes through SOUND business practice - that they will now be investing in a game that is a 95% chance that they will lose money every year involved based on racing costs and revenues, and is also a high-risk proposition in terms of the actual principle investments itself (the horse(s) ) as far as paying $5,000 - $5 ,illion on an animal that can break down or colis and die at any minute....Adding to the intrigue now, you have these *******s - these opportunist leaches and scumbags of the earth - who are supposed to be your advisors to help you succeed in the game when they are really looking to drain you for every dime you can before you have bad luck and leave them (which is inevitable)....(BTW, I've even heard a VERY famous trainer say that he drains them aggressively early on because you never know how long they'll be with you - referring to rich clients)...Once horse racing is exposed for this type of wide spread scandal beyond the other scandals that already exist in our game, DOES THIS SOUND LIKE A GAME YOU WOULD BE INTERESTED IN INVESTING YOUR TIME, MONEY, AND ENERGY IN?

These *******s are getting rich on ZERO credentials and ruining our great game at the same time...I hope everyone of them gets caught and prosecuted..I really do....we have to come up with a better way to protect our owners before it is too late to where our reputation is such that horse racing will be known as a game of frauds and cheats and one that nobody will touch with a ten-foot pole when it comes to investing in it....scary thought, but think about it..

I don't care how dumb some people are, NOBODY will just sit there and lose their ass in an industry and take it with a smile - I guarantee you that...not even most of the wealthiest people in the world.....and now with all of this stealing and dirty business with trainers and agents with buying horses - I REALLY guarantee that people won't sit back and get humiliated and allow people to cheat them, even if its more principle that money driven...

Let me also say this.....trainers need to accept more responsibilty when it comes to buying horses legitimately too IMO......If you are a trainer and you think a horse is worth $100,000 and want to buy him at a sale and you go to $150,000 to buy the horse because you think you can because it is the owner's cash and not yours - that is wrong and unethicle IMO....Trainers should spend the money as if it was their own, but they don't becasue they are usually lazy and ultimately do not care about what the owner spends for a horse as long as they get to train it....(not all trainers are like this obviously..I'm singling out a popular group that I see this sort of behavior from all the time). I laugh because they raise their hands like its no big deal at all....I watch some of these guys at the auction..a horse will be going $400,000....$450,000....$500,000 and the hands effortlessly go up in the air and I can't hal;p but think to myself with soem of these guys that "Damn, he has never probably even seen $500,000 in his total life - yet he is effortlessy bidding it as if it were like chump change" - how ironic I find that....

This game has ALOT of horrible habits ad traditions that simnply need to be run out...they are cancerous and sometimes as an owner you almost get the fealing as if your are supposed to be f *cked over in this game when this sh it happens....its almost like they expect you to accept it....

The overall fact that the owner economics in this game are WAAAY upside-down suggests that we really need to address this issue fast and make it right...

Think about it...if you were a stockholder in a company that always lost money, wouldn't you sell and find a better investment?..Of course you would....Owners are the lifeblood of the industries...without them there is no product...no horses....no trainers get paid, no jockeys get paid - see where I'm going?

Yet despite that fact, 95% of the owners in our game lose their asses every year while some of the trainers and jockeys get rich....upside-down economics....

Owners pay for everything...the last thing they need now is getting a ram-job from these *******s who claim to be professionals - but are really just fraudulent crook hillbillies that call themselves trainers and bloodstock agents (again, most trainers are probably okay people...as for agents - no comment...I'd never use one...)

Joel I agree with just about everything you say. Its extremely frustrating to be an agent in private sales, attempting to purchase one who has already shown ability on the racetrack, and not be able to get someone to pay 300 grand for a horse who has already shown proven ability, yet see people paying high 6 figures at sales for horses that have almost zero chance of ever earning that much.
I've just never understood that, as hard as I try. I realize that people at yearling sales are buying " dreams" and can fantasize that they just bought the next Smarty Jones(until it debuts of course) but it makes no sense to me and never has.
I wouldn't paint all agents with the same brush. The day that Edmund Gann met Mark Reid was indeed a lucky day for him. Mark buys off the track and purchased medgalia for the neighborhood of 350, and the grade one winning mare You for a pittance, Peace Rules, etc.
Frustration is asking someone if they are interested in a filly who debuts with a solid number and decent pedigree and hearing no, and then seeing them buy a yearling for 800 grand the next week.
I think that painting all agents with the same stroke is unfair. Agents have become specialized in different areas and not all buy at auctions.

Originally Posted by oracle80

Joel I agree with just about everything you say. Its extremely frustrating to be an agent in private sales, attempting to purchase one who has already shown ability on the racetrack, and not be able to get someone to pay 300 grand for a horse who has already shown proven ability, yet see people paying high 6 figures at sales for horses that have almost zero chance of ever earning that much.
I've just never understood that, as hard as I try. I realize that people at yearling sales are buying " dreams" and can fantasize that they just bought the next Smarty Jones(until it debuts of course) but it makes no sense to me and never has.
I wouldn't paint all agents with the same brush. The day that Edmund Gann met Mark Reid was indeed a lucky day for him. Mark buys off the track and purchased medgalia for the neighborhood of 350, and the grade one winning mare You for a pittance, Peace Rules, etc.
Frustration is asking someone if they are interested in a filly who debuts with a solid number and decent pedigree and hearing no, and then seeing them buy a yearling for 800 grand the next week.
I think that painting all agents with the same stroke is unfair. Agents have become specialized in different areas and not all buy at auctions.

Let me rephrase that - agents AT AUCTION...too many of them are in cahoots with consignors and it is simply a matter of running up as much money as possible between the consignors and agents and then chopping it all up at the end of the day - end result: Consignors and Agnets are overpaid for their product and the owner gets his horse paying way more than it was worth......If I would have journaled everytime I have seen this behavior at sales or heard of it first hand, I would probably have a pretty significant binder....damn shame...

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

Let me rephrase that - agents AT AUCTION...too many of them are in cahoots with consignors and it is simply a matter of running up as much money as possible between the consignors and agents and then chopping it all up at the end of the day - end result: Consignors and Agnets are overpaid for their product and the owner gets his horse paying way more than it was worth......If I would have journaled everytime I have seen this behavior at sales or heard of it first hand, I would probably have a pretty significant binder....damn shame...

If you can find 300 grand that I ever made buying a horse at a markup, you can keep 298 grand of it and just give me two grand to play the Belmont card tomorrow.
Private buying agents probably work as hard as anyone you ever met in the whole industry. Honing skills to determine what talent is, then having someone teach you residual value(thank you Mr Fox, the guy on Steves radio show lately is the guy who taught me when I was younger), then having to make a thousand phone calls that almost always end with no sale.
Then you have to work hard to find clients who trust you and trainers who trust you.
All for 5-10% of a deal.
I see guys wearing suits at saratoga who are nothing more than guys who are guessing at pedigree getting into Limos and heading to the windows with wads of bills that would choke a horse to make bets. Must be nice.
By the way, I have made offers for someone who is being accused on this thread many times. Hes had me make offers in the multimillions, multiple times, and hes never ONCE asked me to do anything wrong. Never ONCE has he asked me to pad a deal, and when i asked him if I should split a commission from a possible sale with him the first time I made an offer for him, he said no, thats your money if you get it, you earn it. Hes aces in my book. And I can only judge people based on how they have acted towards me and with me in dealings.
I think all sides of the story need to be heard here before anyone judges anyone.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by oracle80

If you can find 300 grand that I ever made buying a horse at a markup, you can keep 298 grand of it and just give me two grand to play the Belmont card tomorrow.
Private buying agents probably work as hard as anyone you ever met in the whole industry. Honing skills to determine what talent is, then having someone teach you residual value(thank you Mr Fox, the guy on Steves radio show lately is the guy who taught me when I was younger), then having to make a thousand phone calls that almost always end with no sale.
Then you have to work hard to find clients who trust you and trainers who trust you.
All for 5-10% of a deal.
I see guys wearing suits at saratoga who are nothing more than guys who are guessing at pedigree getting into Limos and heading to the windows with wads of bills that would choke a horse to make bets. Must be nice.
By the way, I have made offers for someone who is being accused on this thread many times. Hes had me make offers in the multimillions, multiple times, and hes never ONCE asked me to do anything wrong. Never ONCE has he asked me to pad a deal, and when i asked him if I should split a commission from a possible sale with him the first time I made an offer for him, he said no, thats your money if you get it, you earn it. Hes aces in my book. And I can only judge people based on how they have acted towards me and with me in dealings.
I think all sides of the story need to be heard here before anyone judges anyone.

I don't know about working as hard as anyone you ever met....you wake up at the crack of dawn and walk around Keeneland looking at 200 something yearlings then tell me how easy it is!

I think the most frusterating thing is when a horse that was recommended to LOTS of people gets passed on and then goes on to win some serious cash and G1's and like you said all of these people are buying unknown horses at auction....makes NO sense!

Nice post Cunningham Racing..you're right, this business more than any other puts the biggest players (the owners) in a lot of risk. To them it is a hobby and they really should be able to trust the people who are "advisors".

Originally Posted by Sightseek

I don't know about working as hard as anyone you ever met....you wake up at the crack of dawn and walk around Keeneland looking at 200 something yearlings then tell me how easy it is!

Well, I will say that most of the big-shot agents don't even walk the grounds checking hundreds of yearlings in serach of the good ones.....most of them short-list horses now, which for you who don't understand means that they outsource hire other agents to go out (the agents split the ones they review by either catalog number or barns usually) in the first days of showing on the grounds during a sales week and disqualify 90+% of the horses in the sale based on what that particular big-shot pinhooker wants in terms of specifications - such as conformation, size, precociousness, etc.....

Then, after the big-shot agent has his 3 or 4 people review every horse in the sale, he consolidates the data and THEN actually goes out to check a very limited group of prospects......I know a guy who short-lists for a popular agent I won't name, and he said that this guy's grading system is SO strict that he usually will only qualify about 10% of the horses he looks at.....

Buzz Chace, Demi....most of the big dogs do this....so, I guess the point is that they never actually slave over hundreds of horses searching for the jewel in the stack.....as a matter of fact, most of the horses actually come to the big buyers because the consignors will call or seek out the big money clients when they know they have something the market is going to really like....