Garden City, Gazelle, & Man O' War

[Revolution]

Originally Posted by eurobounce

Showing up is a very good horse. But it is a huge step up when facing older horses (especially older horses of this caliber). Even though the "improvement factor" is much better for 3 years than older horses the jump up in class is, often times, too difficult for 3 year olds. A good example is Lady Of Venice. She looked good at Churchill and she looked good at Saratoga only losing by a shrinking length. If she ran that same race against horses or her own age, she wins by 5+ lengths.

I dont think this board is pro-cacique and anti-showing up. I think the board is using experience and logic when assessing the two horses. But like Gander said, we will see in 48 hours.

i can assure you that go deputy, relaxed gesture and showing up are all as good as cacique. cacique has no more grade 1 wins than any of the others. the horse with the upside is showing up but i think showing up and cacique will be overbet. go deputy is very dangerous here. i really think go deputy is better than his stablemate english channel right now. i think showing up would have been an easy winner but ramazutti will ensure us of a nice pace.

i have to admit i love turf racing much more than the dirt racing. this is an excellent race.

Originally Posted by Revolution

i can assure you that go deputy, relaxed gesture and showing up are all as good as cacique. cacique has no more grade 1 wins than any of the others. the horse with the upside is showing up but i think showing up and cacique will be overbet. go deputy is very dangerous here. i really think go deputy is better than his stablemate english channel right now. i think showing up would have been an easy winner but ramazutti will ensure us of a nice pace.

i have to admit i love turf racing much more than the dirt racing. this is an excellent race.

I don't think Ramazutti setting a solid pace will hurt Showing Up. From what I have seen, he doesn't need the lead. The only time he wired a field was at Arlington.

Anybody know if it is going to rain? A soft turf moves Relaxed Gesture way up.

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by deltaforce97

I don't think Ramazutti setting a solid pace will hurt Showing Up. From what I have seen, he doesn't need the lead. The only time he wired a field was at Arlington.

Anybody know if it is going to rain? A soft turf moves Relaxed Gesture way up.

No rain in the forecast.. Almost definite to be fast and firm.

[GPK]

Originally Posted by Revolution

i can assure you that go deputy, relaxed gesture and showing up are all as good as cacique. cacique has no more grade 1 wins than any of the others. the horse with the upside is showing up but i think showing up and cacique will be overbet. go deputy is very dangerous here. i really think go deputy is better than his stablemate english channel right now. i think showing up would have been an easy winner but ramazutti will ensure us of a nice pace.

i have to admit i love turf racing much more than the dirt racing. this is an excellent race.

Holy sh*t I can't stop laughing.....can we keep this guy around??? I love people with a sense of humor that can keep me in stitches....

[Gander]

If Cacique does lose this race, he surely will have an excuse. Every time he loses its because of something or another. Its never because he wasnt the best horse.

Kev, while I am not really for or against Go Deputy being "better" than English Channel, you can certainly make a case that the two are at least in the same league as far as right now goes. Go Deputy beat Relaxed Gesture as decisively as ENglish Channel beat him last time they ran. Go Deputy looked real good in the Sword Dancer and would have been very tough for any horse to handle that day. I would say the jury is still very much out although English Channel is more accomplished.

[GPK]

Originally Posted by Gander

If Cacique does lose this race, he surely will have an excuse. Every time he loses its because of something or another. Its never because he wasnt the best horse.

Kev, while I am not really for or against Go Deputy being "better" than English Channel, you can certainly make a case that the two are at least in the same league as far as right now goes. Go Deputy beat Relaxed Gesture as decisively as ENglish Channel beat him last time they ran. Go Deputy looked real good in the Sword Dancer and would have been very tough for any horse to handle that day. I would say the jury is still very much out although English Channel is more accomplished.

Tim....I could have beat RG by 10 lengths after the headlock Kent D. put him in.

give me a winner in the 2nd today so I can find a good early double.

[GPK]

I like Go Deputy alot....hes a very good horse....6-1 on him that day was a GIFT.

[Gander]

Kev- I would try Chantal's horse 'Owns the Place' in the back end of the late double. This horse has the best speed and because of the jockey will get away at an overlay.

Didnt Cacique also have a huge excuse (bad ride, way wide?) in his first race this year out in California when he lost to Milk it Mick? Or am I getting him mixed up with somebody else? Pardon me if I am, I dont have Cacique's PPs in front of me.

And didnt everybody say teh only reason he lost the Million was Tin Man and his crawling pace? Isnt that an excuse?

Originally Posted by Gander

Kev- I would try Chantal's horse 'Owns the Place' in the back end of the late double. This horse has the best speed and because of the jockey will get away at an overlay.

Didnt Cacique also have a huge excuse (bad ride, way wide?) in his first race this year out in California when he lost to Milk it Mick? Or am I getting him mixed up with somebody else? Pardon me if I am, I dont have Cacique's PPs in front of me.

And didnt everybody say teh only reason he lost the Million was Tin Man and his crawling pace? Isnt that an excuse?

Tim, thats not an excuse, thats reality.
And I think you often confuse legitimate facts with excuses.
I don't think anyone who said that was saying that it was an excuse. Its just the way it is. I commended the Tin Man and his connections and the race he ran. But you have to admit, when 1:15 went up on the board the race was over, especially since the fillies went in 1:11:3 earlier.
I mean, should we just ignore horses who are stuck behind crawling paces or locked in traffic most of a trip.
I attribute his last loss to a combination of "pilot error" and the fact that he was chasing a damn game and nice horse down the lane.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by Gander

Kev- I would try Chantal's horse 'Owns the Place' in the back end of the late double. This horse has the best speed and because of the jockey will get away at an overlay.

Didnt Cacique also have a huge excuse (bad ride, way wide?) in his first race this year out in California when he lost to Milk it Mick? Or am I getting him mixed up with somebody else? Pardon me if I am, I dont have Cacique's PPs in front of me.

And didnt everybody say teh only reason he lost the Million was Tin Man and his crawling pace? Isnt that an excuse?

Yes he was pretty wide on the turn in that race in CA, but since then I really like the way they have been more aggresive with him and riding closer on the lead. His victory on the Belmont Stakes undercard was a very clever ride in my opinion.

Did anyone watch the head on of the Arlington Million break? English Channel got knocked hard by Cacique...that has to be the worst positioning of a gate I've seen.

Originally Posted by Gander

If Cacique does lose this race, he surely will have an excuse. Every time he loses its because of something or another. Its never because he wasnt the best horse.

Kev, while I am not really for or against Go Deputy being "better" than English Channel, you can certainly make a case that the two are at least in the same league as far as right now goes. Go Deputy beat Relaxed Gesture as decisively as ENglish Channel beat him last time they ran. Go Deputy looked real good in the Sword Dancer and would have been very tough for any horse to handle that day. I would say the jury is still very much out although English Channel is more accomplished.

Tim I don't recall any excuse for him losing any race this year other than the rough trip he got at CD. No excuxse at either Mth or AP and I think this excuse thing is something in your own mind. WHo offered excuses in any race but one? And that race at CD did have a legitimate excuse.

[Revolution]

Originally Posted by Gander

If Cacique does lose this race, he surely will have an excuse. Every time he loses its because of something or another. Its never because he wasnt the best horse.

Kev, while I am not really for or against Go Deputy being "better" than English Channel, you can certainly make a case that the two are at least in the same league as far as right now goes. Go Deputy beat Relaxed Gesture as decisively as ENglish Channel beat him last time they ran. Go Deputy looked real good in the Sword Dancer and would have been very tough for any horse to handle that day. I would say the jury is still very much out although English Channel is more accomplished.

hard to agree with that. go deputy might be better right now and showing up could turn out to be a superstar. wide open race. cacique is no better than showing up or go deputy.

[Gander]

I agree King Glorious. Both on liking Teammate tomorrow and for thinking this year's 3yo fillies ar a mighty weak group. If Bushfire is teh leader of this division and Pine Island is the only other one who could"eclipse" her, than you know its weak.

Rev, not sure what you mean. I agree that you could argue that Go Deputy is as good right now as ENg Channel. And in no way do I like Cacique as my top choice or would I bet him. I just think hes a better bet than Showing Up.

[randallscott35]

Tomorrow is the day to bet Relaxed Gesture. When everyone gets off, you get on. 5-1 is not impossible in the least. Cacique always takes a ton of money. That's where I'll be.

[Gander]

I agree Randall. These are the types who take turns and tomorrow its RG's turn. Showing Up has never beaten a real good horse. Cacique has a knack of running 2nd. Go Deputy just got his win. Crown Point is a billygoat. Who else is there?

[Revolution]

Originally Posted by Gander

I agree King Glorious. Both on liking Teammate tomorrow and for thinking this year's 3yo fillies ar a mighty weak group. If Bushfire is teh leader of this division and Pine Island is the only other one who could"eclipse" her, than you know its weak.

Rev, not sure what you mean. I agree that you could argue that Go Deputy is as good right now as ENg Channel. And in no way do I like Cacique as my top choice or would I bet him. I just think hes a better bet than Showing Up.

i was arguing with your statement that if cacique loses he will have an excuse. i think he could get a perfect trip and lose to showing up or go deputy. they both could just be better horses. showing up and go deputy are clearly running on all cylinders right now. go deputy looks to be over all his health issues and he just won a grade 1 and won the bowling green right before that.

[Gander]

Rev- I was being very tongue in cheek. Every time this horse loses its someone going to slow, him getting a bad ride, blah blah blah. He wires a field going easy fractions on Bel Day and hes a superstar. I'm not buying it.

This group of older turf horses is pretty good but they are turn takers. You cant make an argument that any one of them is that much better than the rest.

[Sightseek]

The undercard is pretty nice too!

http://www.equibase.com/premium/eqbR...2006&STYLE=EQB

Great Point returns (Race 3 faces Luxembourg, Regent Spirit & Sir Halory), Trueheart, who isn't very good but is a sibling to A.P. Valentine is an AE in the 5th, Rebuttal is in the 1st.