Just for a change of pace

[dellinger63]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

But any serious intelligence official will tell you that your second paragraph just doesn't happen.

It happens on '24,' but doesn't actually happen in real life -- ticking time bomb scenarios are stuff of fantasy and television. Torture does not come up when deciding whether or not to torture or save Los Angeles. It's a great straw man for backing torture, however, that lots of people use when they don't have a real, substantive argument.

Serious Intelligence Official as in Leon Panetta?

[Cannon Shell]

There are lots of debates where we have some level of experience or can research the facts in tons of verifiable sources. Abortion, religion, the economy, govt spending, taxes, gun control, etc. Torture in regards to foreign combatants, hostages, terrorists, POW's, etc. is not one of those things. Therefore any discussion is completely opinion based which is fine but kind of superficial.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

There are lots of debates where we have some level of experience or can research the facts in tons of verifiable sources. Abortion, religion, the economy, govt spending, taxes, gun control, etc. Torture in regards to foreign combatants, hostages, terrorists, POW's, etc. is not one of those things. Therefore any discussion is completely opinion based which is fine but kind of superficial.

If the ex-head of the CIA says waterboarding did work
in giving us some very valuable information, confirmed
by CIA guys from Bush and Clinton years...

But you are right. With all the brain research going on now
and different ways of altering neurons, you just know there
is some stuff going on we cannot fathom.

Originally Posted by dellinger63

Serious Intelligence Official as in Leon Panetta?

Panetta actually sided with the old CIA guys
on most of this stuff that has just come to light.
He apparently was of the opinion that the articles
detailing a bunch of stuff about "intelligence" gathering
was not at all helpful and not necessary.

[dellinger63]

Originally Posted by pgardn

Panetta actually sided with the old CIA guys
on most of this stuff that has just come to light.
He apparently was of the opinion that the articles
detailing a bunch of stuff about "intelligence" gathering
was not at all helpful and not necessary.

I think the only time he took that position was when he was doing his best to cover up Slick Will's BJ. Actually here's his point of view in his own words though it sounds like it could have been written by Brian,

We have preached these values to the world. We have made clear that there are certain lines Americans will not cross because we respect the dignity of every human being. That pledge was written into the oath of office given to every president, "to preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution." It's what is supposed to make our leaders different from every tyrant, dictator, or despot. We are sworn to govern by the rule of law, not by brute force.

We cannot simply suspend these beliefs in the name of national security. Those who support torture may believe that we can abuse captives in certain select circumstances and still be true to our values. But that is a false compromise. We either believe in the dignity of the individual, the rule of law, and the prohibition of cruel and unusual punishment, or we don't. There is no middle ground.

We cannot and we must not use torture under any circumstances. We are better than that.


http://marcambinder.theatlantic.com/...on_torture.php