Just for a change of pace

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by pgardn

This subject I personally have a probem with.
I dont think anything needs to be taken off the
table when you have a terrorist situation.

If you have a group with a nuke, in the middle
of LA, waiting to blow up perfectly innocent
citizens for nothing more to kill and incite fear...
I dont take anything off the table if I get one
of these guys.

The problem comes about where to draw the line.
I dont trust some of our intelligence gatherers.
They have already annointed apparently innocent
people and put them through hell.

It is very difficult. I just cant say no never given
the situation in the 2nd paragraph. But if you keep
"torture" or other intelligence gathering methods
as an option, they will certainly be abused. very hard...

The shows this Sunday made it very clear the CIA did
get major intelligence breakthroughs using some
unsavory means. One by waterboarding. It works very
well in certain situations. In others it apparently is
useless.

But any serious intelligence official will tell you that your second paragraph just doesn't happen.

It happens on '24,' but doesn't actually happen in real life -- ticking time bomb scenarios are stuff of fantasy and television. Torture does not come up when deciding whether or not to torture or save Los Angeles. It's a great straw man for backing torture, however, that lots of people use when they don't have a real, substantive argument.

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

But any serious intelligence official will tell you that your second paragraph just doesn't happen.

It happens on '24,' but doesn't actually happen in real life -- ticking time bomb scenarios are stuff of fantasy and television. Torture does not come up when deciding whether or not to torture or save Los Angeles. It's a great straw man for backing torture, however, that lots of people use when they don't have a real, substantive argument.

They might tell you it does not happen.
But there is no way they can tell you it
cannot happen. I seriously never thought
anything like NY could happen.

We had over 2000 people
killed and it could have been 10X that many.
If you are holding people that can give you
evidence about a plot going down, I dont see
how anyone can say absolutely not. Other airplanes
are about to be boarded and you can get info
using a method that is outlawed...?
There is no way I could say you cannot use this
method knowing that it could lead to the slaughter
of a bunch of innocent people living in a crowded
urban area.

[Cannon Shell]

I don't think that any of us has a real clue as to what the CIA does or needs to do in order to keep us safe from the threats that have existed and continue to exist for decades. Who here is really qualified to understand any of these things in a meaningful context? Maybe it is distasteful but I have a hard time believing that the intelligence agencies of virtually every country in the world use tactics that dont work. Obviously we would all prefer terrorists to roll over without resorting to torture but I would guess that this is not the case in a great deal of cases but how would I really know? Some things are just better off unknown...

It was made clear to me on Sunday that
valuable intelligence can be gathered by
waterboarding. It does work in some cases.

Hell I dont even know what criteria is used
to call a method torture. There is physical toture
that is not as bad as mental torture apparently and obviously vice
versa. I just dont want methods that do work in some cases
automatically dismissed. Yet I know there is a chance
and a higher probability the methods will be abused.

Im a mess on this situation.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by pgardn

It was made clear to me on Sunday that
valuable intelligence can be gathered by
waterboarding. It does work in some cases.

Hell I dont even know what criteria is used
to call a method torture. There is physical toture
that is not as bad as mental torture apparently and obviously vice
versa. I just dont want methods that do work in some cases
automatically dismissed. Yet I know there is a chance
and a higher probability the methods will be abused.

Im a mess on this situation.

just feed them my monster in laws cooking. they'll tell you anything you want to know to avoid that sludge.

Originally Posted by Danzig

just feed them my monster in laws cooking. they'll tell you anything you want to know to avoid that sludge.

In-law torture is the worst kind of mental abuse...

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by pgardn

In-law torture is the worst kind of mental abuse...

no joke!!

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I don't think that any of us has a real clue as to what the CIA does or needs to do in order to keep us safe from the threats that have existed and continue to exist for decades. Who here is really qualified to understand any of these things in a meaningful context? Maybe it is distasteful but I have a hard time believing that the intelligence agencies of virtually every country in the world use tactics that dont work. Obviously we would all prefer terrorists to roll over without resorting to torture but I would guess that this is not the case in a great deal of cases but how would I really know? Some things are just better off unknown...

I know I don't agree with this. We are responsible for what this country's agents do. Just like the Japanese people (and the German people) should be blamed for what they allowed their leaders to do in WW2. We need to know, and we need to be responsible for it.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

I know I don't agree with this. We are responsible for what this country's agents do. Just like the Japanese people (and the German people) should be blamed for what they allowed their leaders to do in WW2. We need to know, and we need to be responsible for it.

That is a ridiculous argument. We dont need to know because we cant possibly understand it. How exactly did we hold the German and Japanese people responsible for their leaders actions? Rebuild their countries and give them lots of money? Please punish me....

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

That is a ridiculous argument. We dont need to know because we cant possibly understand it. How exactly did we hold the German and Japanese people responsible for their leaders actions? Rebuild their countries and give them lots of money? Please punish me....

Fried the Japanese Civilians with the A bomb, and (as a people that didn't question their leaders) they all deserved it. Carpet bombed Dresden. Believe me, they thought they didn't need to know exactly what their leaders were doing. They went along with their leaders (just being loyal etc.) We could easily have a city here get hit by atleast a dirty bomb, because people think we tortured (and sadly we don't know exactly what our leaders had done down there.)

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

Fried the Japanese Civilians with the A bomb, and (as a people that didn't question their leaders) they all deserved it. Carpet bombed Dresden. Believe me, they thought they didn't need to know exactly what their leaders were doing. They went along with their leaders (just being loyal etc.) We could easily have a city here get hit by atleast a dirty bomb, because people think we tortured (and sadly we don't know exactly what our leaders had done down there.)

I know it is you but do you really think that if terrorists were capable of using a dirty bomb against us that they wouldnt if we treated their prisoners in a better manner?

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I know it is you but do you really think that if terrorists were capable of using a dirty bomb against us that they wouldnt if we treated their prisoners in a better manner?

It sure doesn't help. How can I complain about the barbaric things they do in Islamic countries, and then say nothing when our government does some of the same?

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

I know I don't agree with this. We are responsible for what this country's agents do. Just like the Japanese people (and the German people) should be blamed for what they allowed their leaders to do in WW2. We need to know, and we need to be responsible for it.

I did not take the quote the same way.
But we do need to take responsibilty.

I was thinking more along the lines of the CIA
is probably fiddling with brain chemistry in such a way
as to not cause irrepairable mental damage and still
get info. with stuff we would not udnerstand

[Cannon Shell]

While this is not directly about torture it is interesting that in dealing with real world issues that Obama walks along the same lines as the previous administration. This is one campaign promise I hope stays broken.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124027091370936935.html

[timmgirvan]

Originally Posted by pgardn

I did not take the quote the same way.
But we do need to take responsibilty.

I was thinking more along the lines of the CIA
is probably fiddling with brain chemistry in such a way
as to not cause irrepairable mental damage and still
get info. with stuff we would not udnerstand

I'm pretty sure it started in your classes!

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

waterboarding and other assorted measures are 100 percent usefull and should be ok....gimme a break people..you dont know what intel is/was taken from these people in abue grade/or guantanamo.its part of the 'game'. you get caught.you have a choice..help or we will help you.why should we care about these combatants..as if they whould not as a whole strap a bomb to themselves and walk into wallmart and boom..just as they continue to do to our troops in iraq.this bleeding hart stuff for combat troops ie al q. is laughable..feed the homeless..start there first.......

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by hoovesupsideyourhead

waterboarding and other assorted measures are 100 percent usefull and should be ok....gimme a break people..you dont know what intel is/was taken from these people in abue grade/or guantanamo.its part of the 'game'. you get caught.you have a choice..help or we will help you.why should we care about these combatants..as if they whould not as a whole strap a bomb to themselves and walk into wallmart and boom..just as they continue to do to our troops in iraq.this bleeding hart stuff for combat troops ie al q. is laughable..feed the homeless..start there first.......

What if the person being tortured is not a terrorist and knows nothing?

[Cannon Shell]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123972817445317541.html

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

But any serious intelligence official will tell you that your second paragraph just doesn't happen.

It happens on '24,' but doesn't actually happen in real life -- ticking time bomb scenarios are stuff of fantasy and television. Torture does not come up when deciding whether or not to torture or save Los Angeles. It's a great straw man for backing torture, however, that lots of people use when they don't have a real, substantive argument.

Brian how the hell do you know that? Because some guy trying to sell a book says so? This is a subject that we (hopefully) will never have to have to deal with firsthand.

[dellinger63]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

But any serious intelligence official will tell you that your second paragraph just doesn't happen.

It happens on '24,' but doesn't actually happen in real life -- ticking time bomb scenarios are stuff of fantasy and television. Torture does not come up when deciding whether or not to torture or save Los Angeles. It's a great straw man for backing torture, however, that lots of people use when they don't have a real, substantive argument.

Serious Intelligence Official as in Leon Panetta?