Good Jub Obama!

[Riot]

Originally Posted by IrishofNDMan

Well when it came to voting it was put together as one and it makes me sick that some people would actually vote for this and that our "leader" would support it!!

Irish - you are right, some people mistakenly lump this as abortion.

Embryonic stem cells do not come from aborted fetuses, they come from eggs fertilized "in vitro" (means out of the body, in a petri dish) in fertilization clinics, but that are not used and are thrown out. These thrown out cells are 2-4 day old blastocytes.

These thrown out cells - with the permission of the donors - can be used instead in stem cell research.

I have used stem cells derived from a patient's own fat and injected it back into the patients hip joints to fight hip dysplasia (dog). We use adipose-based (fat) stem cells in horses (the patients own fat) to help repair tendons (have been doing that for several years). We can also use the pateint's own blood-based cell lines.

I know Chuck has purchased a horse in the past at the F-S sale, that came with the bit of information that it has it's own blood from it's own umbilical cord (from it's birth) saved in a laboratory. That blood can hopefully be used someday to derive it's own stem cells if the horse needs it.

But adult stem cells are not the same as embryonic stem cells - you can't always get the same things from them.

This summer there will start trials for people with certain spinal cord injuries. In the laboratory, mice with certain spinal cord injuries that cause them to be paralyzed have had certain stem cells injected, and the cells grew into the cells the mice needed, and the mice were healed and could walk.

Imagine if Christopher Reeve (remember, he got a paralyzing spinal cord injury in a fall from his horse, that made him a quadriplegic and ultimately ended up causing his death from pneumonia) - imagine if someone like this, with this terrible injury, could have been injected with stem cells that regrew the damaged neural tissue, and that paralyzed patient could walk again. How wondrous and great would that be!

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Riot

Irish - you are right, some people mistakenly lump this as abortion.

Embryonic stem cells do not come from aborted fetuses, they come from eggs fertilized "in vitro" (means out of the body, in a petri dish) in fertilization clinics, but that are not used and are thrown out. These thrown out cells are 2-4 day old blastocytes.
These thrown out cells - with the permission of the donors - can be used instead in stem cell research.

I have used stem cells derived from a patient's own fat and injected it back into the patients hip joints to fight hip dysplasia (dog). We use adipose-based (fat) stem cells in horses (the patients own fat) to help repair tendons (have been doing that for several years). We can also use the pateint's own blood-based cell lines.

I know Chuck has purchased a horse in the past at the F-S sale, that came with the bit of information that it has it's own blood from it's own umbilical cord (from it's birth) saved in a laboratory. That blood can hopefully be used someday to derive it's own stem cells if the horse needs it.

But adult stem cells are not the same as embryonic stem cells - you can't always get the same things from them.

This summer there will start trials for people with certain spinal cord injuries. In the laboratory, mice with certain spinal cord injuries that cause them to be paralyzed have had certain stem cells injected, and the cells grew into the cells the mice needed, and the mice were healed and could walk.

Imagine if Christopher Reeve (remember, he got a paralyzing spinal cord injury in a fall from his horse, that made him a quadriplegic and ultimately ended up causing his death from pneumonia) - imagine if someone like this, with this terrible injury, could have been injected with stem cells that regrew the damaged neural tissue, and that paralyzed patient could walk again. How wondrous and great would that be!

and therein lies the rub. there are some who think life begins at fertilization-so they will of course object to using the cells, regardless of where they'd otherwise end up-in this case, the trash.

[IrishofNDMan]

Originally Posted by Danzig

and therein lies the rub. there are some who think life begins at fertilization-so they will of course object to using the cells, regardless of where they'd otherwise end up-in this case, the trash.

life does begin at fertilization, I don't see how you can believe otherwise.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by IrishofNDMan

life does begin at fertilization, I don't see how you can believe otherwise.

because a fertilized egg won't necessarily attach itself to the uterine wall for starters.

i'd just as soon not get into that whole debate tho.

Originally Posted by Danzig

because a fertilized egg won't necessarily attach itself to the uterine wall for starters.

i'd just as soon not get into that whole debate tho.

oops I did.

A little basic Biology can make things awfully gray.

[IrishofNDMan]

I'll give a little science lesson, correct me if im wrong...


The human sperm cells are alive. They are sex cells that contain half of the genetic code needed to make up our 46 chromosones.

Ova cells are likewise alive. They contain the other half of the genetic code.

When a sperm cell enters an ova a new cell is made. This cell is too alive and it is called a zygote. The zygote has all 46 chromosones in tact (half coming from the father, half from the mother). You now have a human being. 46 chromosones = human.

When did life begin? WHEN DID IT EVER END? The father is alive, the mother is alive, the sperm are alive, the ova is alive, the zygote is alive...EVERTHING IS ALIVE!!!

Originally Posted by IrishofNDMan

I'll give a little science lesson, correct me if im wrong...


The human sperm cells are alive. They are sex cells that contain half of the genetic code needed to make up our 46 chromosones.

Ova cells are likewise alive. They contain the other half of the genetic code.

When a sperm cell enters an ova a new cell is made. This cell is too alive and it is called a zygote. The zygote has all 46 chromosones in tact (half coming from the father, half from the mother). You now have a human being. 46 chromosones = human.

When did life begin? WHEN DID IT EVER END? The father is alive, the mother is alive, the sperm are alive, the ova is alive, the zygote is alive...EVERTHING IS ALIVE!!!

So if you have a wet dream
its like the killing fields?

Is there a diff. between alive and human?
When does a cell become a human?
You said at conception... thats a problem then.
Do you realize how many humans die without
anyone even knowing?

[Riot]

Originally Posted by IrishofNDMan

When did life begin? WHEN DID IT EVER END? The father is alive, the mother is alive, the sperm are alive, the ova is alive, the zygote is alive...EVERTHING IS ALIVE!!!

You're right, bioethics are important, Irish, very important in all this.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by pgardn

oops I did.

A little basic Biology can make things awfully gray.

well, i guess i really did too since i mentioned it and then explained my point a bit. but it's a very touchy subject to many. hell, i'm a mother of three-i think i get it.

[Danzig]

i'm going to go bury my bedsheets now, have a bit of a funeral.

Originally Posted by IrishofNDMan

life does begin at fertilization, I don't see how you can believe otherwise.

Then the number of deaths every year is sky high.
All the "miscarriages" that happen at the 1,2,4, 8, 16, 32, etc... cell stage.
Lots of little crosses.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by pgardn

Then the number of deaths every year is sky high.
All the "miscarriages" that happen at the 1,2,4, 8, 16, 32, etc... cell stage.
Lots of little crosses.

it's one of the arguments against birth control pills that some have made. one of the affects the pill has is keeping the uterus from allowing a fertilized egg to attach. i guess i'm going to jail.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Danzig

and therein lies the rub. there are some who think life begins at fertilization-so they will of course object to using the cells, regardless of where they'd otherwise end up-in this case, the trash.

True, and then to be consistent, they would have to be against much of modern human reproductive science. That would be saying that a couple isn't entitled to get any child from her egg and his sperm, if it resulted in a second or third fertilized egg being discarded and not used.

And that would make The Octo-Mom and her repro specialist, that injected her with eight viable fertilized eggs ... heros?

(Edit: actually Octo-Mom was injected with seven fertilized eggs, one split, two of those kids are twins)

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Riot

True, and then to be consistent, they would have to be against much of modern human reproductive science. That would be saying that a couple isn't entitled to get any child from her egg and his sperm, if it resulted in a second or third fertilized egg being discarded and not used.

And that would make The Octo-Mom and her repro specialist, that injected her with eight viable fertilized eggs ... heros?

sorry, i'm too busy laughing at the killing field analogy above to take this seriously....whew. ok.

but yes, those arguments have been made, time and again. it's why those who don't worry about 'playing god' when they do in vitro always slay me when they suddenly get all religious about culling the eight fertilized eggs they had implanted in hopes one or two would take.