Brother Derek is a fraud...

By the way, anyone who is actually IN THIS GAME, knows that you never bash another horse or connections who has actually accomplished anything in this game. Its so very hard to ever get a grade one win, and they can't take em away.
In the Gold may have fallen off form this year, shes in a money allowance today. But last year she was grade one placed in some nice races and then won the Grade One Gazelle. Shes worth millions as a broodmare(going rate right now, rock bottom appraisal on grade one winning mares is 2.5 mill) and gave her owner breeder Live Oak a huge thrill.
There isn't any difference. Shes not what she was, but you can't take away what shes accomplished. Of coure Little Lord doesn't know anything about accomplishment, only flapping his gums. And thats what he will forever be doing, writing about the accomplishemnts of other people, after the race is over with.
Way to disprespect the owner and trainer of a grade one winner Joel, especially since the ****ing guys trains froom a wheelchair. You have zero class, zilch, none at this time.

[Kasept]

I don't have time to address this properly, but gosh, I hope the above pair of ridiculous missives is one of your 'tongue-in-cheekers' given your own "bashing" of "somone(s) who have accomplished something" in this game... on a regular, ongoing and unending basis.

Rarely has the pot called the kettle blacker...

[SentToStud]

Originally Posted by Kasept

I don't have time to address this properly, but gosh, I hope the above pair of ridiculous missives is one of your 'tongue-in-cheekers' given your own "bashing" of "somone(s) who have accomplished something" in this game... on a regular, ongoing and unending basis.

Rarely has the pot called the kettle blacker...

Well, sometimes the kettle indeed has a couple extra coats on it as well as a seemingly continuous self-applying shellac function.

And, one does reap what one sows.

Horses are not "frauds." They may disappoint, not run well, be hurt or may be declining. However, anyone who puts themselves out as an "expert" certainly knows better than to apply such a curious cognomen such as "fraud" to an animal.

I wish everyone well, but what happens a year later when a chance to interview the owner and trainer of a fraudulent horse arises? What happens when one gets sent to interview Dutrow after a big win?

I suppose if you put yourself out as an "connected insider," a "professional analyst," and a "industry compensated professional," it should come as no surprise that when you call horses frauds, claim several months later to have earned five figures plus on a race or question the integrity of top trainers, you will be criticized.

Originally Posted by SentToStud

Well, sometimes the kettle indeed has a couple extra coats on it as well as a seemingly continuous self-applying shellac function.

And, one does reap what one sows.

Horses are not "frauds." They may disappoint, not run well, be hurt or may be declining. However, anyone who puts themselves out as an "expert" certainly knows better than to apply such a curious cognomen such as "fraud" to an animal.

I wish everyone well, but what happens a year later when a chance to interview the owner and trainer of a fraudulent horse arises? What happens when one gets sent to interview Dutrow after a big win?

I suppose if you put yourself out as an "connected insider," a "professional analyst," and a "industry compensated professional," it should come as no surprise that when you call horses frauds, claim several months later to have earned five figures plus on a race or question the integrity of top trainers, you will be criticized.

For the 6tH TIME - fraud is a relative term...a racetrack term....I regret using it now because of the lack fo sense of humor on this thread...sorry..\

As for your final paragraph, that is what I get paid to do in a sense....

[Dunbar]

Originally Posted by Kasept

I don't have time to address this properly, but gosh, I hope the above pair of ridiculous missives is one of your 'tongue-in-cheekers' given your own "bashing" of "somone(s) who have accomplished something" in this game... on a regular, ongoing and unending basis.

Rarely has the pot called the kettle blacker...

Thank you for posting that.

--Dunbar

Originally Posted by Kasept

I don't have time to address this properly, but gosh, I hope the above pair of ridiculous missives is one of your 'tongue-in-cheekers' given your own "bashing" of "somone(s) who have accomplished something" in this game... on a regular, ongoing and unending basis.

Rarely has the pot called the kettle blacker...

Steve he is a fraud. A total and complete fraud. Anytime you wanna have a "knowledge off" between he and I, just let me know.
I have bashed trainers, and always will, but not the horses they train.

[Nostradamus]

You people are ridiculous. He never attacked anyone or even the horse. He was just saying the horse is overrated, or a fraud.

It is true, Brother Derek is overrated. He has done nothing except beat mediocre horses. Those two horses he beat over and over are also frauds.

The California horses were way overhyped.


For the record, I don't know Cunningham, but he made the post of the year on this site. He was the one who said the sheikhs would take over racing in america this year, and he was 100% correct. They own american racing.

I do love the hypocrisy from Oracle saying he would never bash anyone in the game and then bashing Cunningham. Only an idiot can't see the hypocrisy there.

I don't see anyone bashing Oracle for his ridiculous predictions on Flower Alley or his ridiculous comments about the top rider in the country G. Gomez or his ridiculous comments about Songster and Albertrani. Those were much more ridiculous than calling a horse a fraud.

The fact is Cunningham is correct and Oracle was wrong on all of the above mentioned.

Originally Posted by Nostradamus

You people are ridiculous. He never attacked anyone or even the horse. He was just saying the horse is overrated, or a fraud.

It is true, Brother Derek is overrated. He has done nothing except beat mediocre horses. Those two horses he beat over and over are also frauds.

The California horses were way overhyped.


For the record, I don't know Cunningham, but he made the post of the year on this site. He was the one who said the sheikhs would take over racing in america this year, and he was 100% correct. They own american racing.

I do love the hypocrisy from Oracle saying he would never bash anyone in the game and then bashing Cunningham. Only an idiot can't see the hypocrisy there.

I don't see anyone bashing Oracle for his ridiculous predictions on Flower Alley or his ridiculous comments about the top rider in the country G. Gomez or his ridiculous comments about Songster and Albertrani. Those were much more ridiculous than calling a horse a fraud.

The fact is Cunningham is correct and Oracle was wrong on all of the above mentioned.

I'm glad somebody sees what I meant....Thanks Nost....I don't mean to be maliscious with any of my posts...."fraud" has negat6ive conotations to it when used in most way, but not in racing....it is as good as "overrated" or under-achiever" where I come from....

[Gander]

Lava Man a fraud? I cant wait for the BC, I really cant.
SO many on here knock this horse for staying home and just making money, throwing one overhyped east coast handicap horse out there after another.
Sun King cant get up yet again, surprise surprise. Flower Alley all done. Looks like its down to Invasor and Bernardinin.
Lava Man, a fraud? LOL! If hes a fraud what are the horses that ran in the Woodward yesterday?

Nostra,
Flower Alley is not a fraud, and you will note that after his last race I completely backed off of backing him as a possible HOY.
The explanation I received after his loss was pretty much confirmed yesterday.
I was told by someone who I trust that he had no injury, that he simply had lost his mental desire to put out or perform.
It happens more often than you think, most often with fillies or mares. Lady's Secret even had this occur at the end of her career, bolting on a turn in an allowance type race and refusing to run. Storm Flag Flying was another, after her incedible BC performance she had the potential to become one of the all the time greats in many people's minds(myself included). When she returned at age three they just couldnt get her to really try. She did win a grade one up here at age 4, accomplished after stalking one of the most bizzare speed duels in history and barely getting up in a last 1/4 in :27(or thereabouts).
We don't know the story with Brother Derek yet. Was he injured? Did something go awry? Or is he just another on a long list of three year olds who were mentally or physically fried(or both) because of the grueling triple crown route?
He was never my favorite horse. I always said I admired his talent but that I thought he had no shot in the Derby. I didn't jump on this thread to jump ugly on Joel just because he started it. Had anyone else started it I would have said the same thing to them. I bash trainers all the time, probably always will. But I tend to appreciate the accomplishments of animals who win a grade one race. Its so hard you just can't believe it. Lansdon told me while he was up here, that its quite conceivable(and likely) that although he is young, that he may never have another grade one winner. He said just getting to a grade one is so very hard. One of the things I like about him is his sense of honesty. he told his wife last year while standing in the winner's circle at the Champgane to enjoy this, because it won't happen again(winning two grade ones in a row with the same horse).
If the thread title had been "Brother Derek not as good as thought earlier", or Hendriks did a lousy job with the horse for this race, I would probably have agreed. But fraud is an awful harsh word for a horse who accomplished and did as much as he did this year. I defended Lawyer Ron the same way earlier this year, even though I thought he had zero shot in the Derby. You have to appreciate a horse who goes out there and does the things that he did.

Originally Posted by Gander

Lava Man a fraud? I cant wait for the BC, I really cant.
SO many on here knock this horse for staying home and just making money, throwing one overhyped east coast handicap horse out there after another.
Sun King cant get up yet again, surprise surprise. Flower Alley all done. Looks like its down to Invasor and Bernardinin.
Lava Man, a fraud? LOL! If hes a fraud what are the horses that ran in the Woodward yesterday?

He's not a fraud, Gander...he is one of the best things and brightest stories this game has produced this year and every gguy who roots for the underdog or the little guy - like we all do at times - should really appreacite what Lava Man has done and cling on to him...

I was just pointing out that from an analysts standpoint he has failed everytime he has shipped out of California.....just check his PPs...doesn't mean he sucks or is a fraud in what many of you ercieve I meant by that word....

[paisjpq]

Originally Posted by oracle80

Steve he is a fraud. A total and complete fraud. Anytime you wanna have a "knowledge off" between he and I, just let me know.
I have bashed trainers, and always will, but not the horses they train.

the whole point is that he doesn't want to have to mediate a 'knowledge off' between the two of you--if you can't get along why not ignore each other--esp. when both of you have much to add to the site when you are not hurling insults @ each other.
Steve is not running a pre-school he's running a website.

Originally Posted by paisjpq

the whole point is that he doesn't want to have to mediate a 'knowledge off' between the two of you--if you can't get along why not ignore each other--esp. when both of you have much to add to the site when you are not hurling insults @ each other.
Steve is not running a pre-school he's running a website.

So 15 guys on this thread bash Joel's thread and I'm the only one whos gotta bear the brunt of it? hell i wasn't even the first one to jump on him, and many on here bashed him harder than I did. It wasn't personal(even though I'm sure everyone thinks it was), if gander had started the thread I woulda jumped on him as well. Gander is a friend of mine for 20 years and he starts threads like this often in the past, and you can see I was often the first one to jump on him and say thats out of line.

[paisjpq]

Originally Posted by oracle80

So 15 guys on this thread bash Joel's thread and I'm the only one whos gotta bear the brunt of it? hell i wasn't even the first one to jump on him, and many on here bashed him harder than I did. It wasn't personal(even though I'm sure everyone thinks it was), if gander had started the thread I woulda jumped on him as well. Gander is a friend of mine for 20 years and he starts threads like this often in the past, and you can see I was often the first one to jump on him and say thats out of line.

it goes beyond just this thread--you and I both know that....

Originally Posted by paisjpq

it goes beyond just this thread--you and I both know that....

No, you don't know that, and its arrogant to think that you do.
Yes, Joel and I get in each others faces a lot on here. But like the other night when I saw a thread title and jumped on DaHoss(who I later apologized to) I didn't even note the author and leaped into a response.
I did the same thing here, whether you think so or not.
Pais, gander starts threads like this all the time, you can ask him, and I have been much rougher on him. And thats a guy I have known and been friends with for over 20 years. Don't have too many friends in this world that I have known longer than gander. But when he starts one of his negativity threads I'm the first one to jump up and down and scream thats stupid.
Joel then turned it personal by bashing a grade one winner I bought. Thats fine. When he is associated with a grade one winner, he will find that I won't bash the horse, regardless of what I think of him.
You, working with horses, ought to appreciate how tough it is for any horse to win a grade one. How many did you take care of, or feed, or brush, before you touched the great henny Hughes? My guess is one HELL of a lot of them.
Brother Derek is a grade one winner(duel) and showed a lot of talent and desire and speed earlier this year. he may not be as good as he was advertised or that the hype spouted about him deserved, he may now be past his prime already, but calling him a fraud off one layoff race that we don't know the details of is certainly foolish in my opinion.

Originally Posted by oracle80

Steve he is a fraud. A total and complete fraud. Anytime you wanna have a "knowledge off" between he and I, just let me know.
I have bashed trainers, and always will, but not the horses they train.

I'd hate to prove you wrong yet again.......

Originally Posted by Kasept

I don't have time to address this properly, but gosh, I hope the above pair of ridiculous missives is one of your 'tongue-in-cheekers' given your own "bashing" of "somone(s) who have accomplished something" in this game... on a regular, ongoing and unending basis.

Rarely has the pot called the kettle blacker...

I couldn't have said it any better, Steve.....

Leave it up to you know who to make a mountain out of an ant hill, especially suggesting that it was a smear against a handicap man because he trains the horse?...what a loser you are, sir....you are truly sick and the stereotypical racetracker that this sport gets a bad rep for at times...