Brother Derek is a fraud...

[dr. fager]

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

..never liked this horse or his hype...he has never beat any good horses....Baffert loved Bob and John today but he hung like a rat...Cindago living up to his early reputation as being a nice horse....

" Brother Derek is a fraud... "

that's kind of the way I feel about you on ATRAB

[ArlJim78]

I have to call into the question the whole notion of a horse being a fraud.
How exactly does that work?

[dr. fager]

the good thing is now if he continues racing....strub series. If he would have won today he would have been outmatched in the BC......great thing for his 4 year old season

[Dunbar]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

I have to call into the question the whole notion of a horse being a fraud.
How exactly does that work?

Why, ArlJim. Don't you know? A horse is a fraud when it loses. If Bernardini loses next time out, he will be a fraud who will have been exposed by running against older horses. If Lava Man loses next time out, he will be a fraud who will have been exposed by running against another good horse, The Tin Man. If Invasor loses next time out, he will be exposed as a fraud because he never before faced tough competition.

You get the picture.

--Dunbar

Originally Posted by Dunbar

Why, ArlJim. Don't you know? A horse is a fraud when it loses. If Bernardini loses next time out, he will be a fraud who will have been exposed by running against older horses. If Lava Man loses next time out, he will be a fraud who will have been exposed by running against another good horse, The Tin Man. If Invasor loses next time out, he will be exposed as a fraud because he never before faced tough competition.

You get the picture.

--Dunbar

Hes a fraud huh? Well then so is the author of this thread.
Especially since the author claims to be active in thoroughbred ownership and breeding.
Horses go through form cycles, and don't remain at the same level of talent throughout a year or a career. To insult a grade one winner as fraud is just ridiculous, especially when coming off a layoff.
Lemme ask you a couple of questions Joel if I might. Hope you will respond.
1) Since you obviously were of the strong opinion that this horse was a fraud, at 2-5 today, how much money did you make betting he race? certainly you must have made a bundle.
2) As a breeder of LA breds, I would think that you would appreciate a "lowly" cal bred winning grade one races and accomplishing as much as Bro derek has. Hes yet more proof that those who enter the business in a humble way can succeed.
So i guess my question is, what chance do you think that there is that you will breed or race a grade one winner in your ownership/breeder career?
My guess will be about 1 in 6000. Thats about the ratio of grade winners born in every crop(very rough guess). If you should ever breed or own a grade one winner, I will fly down there and shine your shoes for you. But lets just say I'm not gonna go out and buy any polish.
You really should know better Joel.

[alysheba4]

Originally Posted by oracle80

Hes a fraud huh? Well then so is the author of this thread.
Especially since the author claims to be active in thoroughbred ownership and breeding.
Horses go through form cycles, and don't remain at the same level of talent throughout a year or a career. To insult a grade one winner as fraud is just ridiculous, especially when coming off a layoff.
Lemme ask you a couple of questions Joel if I might. Hope you will respond.
1) Since you obviously were of the strong opinion that this horse was a fraud, at 2-5 today, how much money did you make betting he race? certainly you must have made a bundle.
2) As a breeder of LA breds, I would think that you would appreciate a "lowly" cal bred winning grade one races and accomplishing as much as Bro derek has. Hes yet more proof that those who enter the business in a humble way can succeed.
So i guess my question is, what chance do you think that there is that you will breed or race a grade one winner in your ownership/breeder career?
My guess will be about 1 in 6000. Thats about the ratio of grade winners born in every crop(very rough guess). If you should ever breed or own a grade one winner, I will fly down there and shine your shoes for you. But lets just say I'm not gonna go out and buy any polish.
You really should know better Joel.

.........hey, i caught that 4/2 exacta ...... bout the only race i hit at that horrible del mar.

Originally Posted by alysheba4

.........hey, i caught that 4/2 exacta ...... bout the only race i hit at that horrible del mar.

You just stole my thunder you *****!! LOL!
I was about to end this with the punch line.
Yesterday at the Spa, I couldnt catch a break. Discouraged and about to walk out, I realized that the Bro Derek race was about to go off.
I liked the winner, and thought it was conceivable that Bro Derek could be out of the exacta. So I boxed up 2-4 and 4-5 for the same amount of money. And hoped that I could get the 4 home and have Derek not fire off the layoff.
I got lucky and he didn't.
The point is that i myself had no confidence in Bro yesterday at all. None. And I cashed by best ticket all day on that exacta (22 per buck was quite huge given that only 3 horses in a 5 horse field had any chance). But I'm not gonna be dumb enough to use that race he ran as an "end all and be all" of judging what he is, ane more importantly, what he was.

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by Dunbar

Why, ArlJim. Don't you know? A horse is a fraud when it loses. If Bernardini loses next time out, he will be a fraud who will have been exposed by running against older horses. If Lava Man loses next time out, he will be a fraud who will have been exposed by running against another good horse, The Tin Man. If Invasor loses next time out, he will be exposed as a fraud because he never before faced tough competition.

You get the picture.

--Dunbar

I think you're on to something, but if Bernardini happens to lose his next race, i would be willing to make a huge wager that Joel will NOT start a thread titled "Bernardini - Nothing but a Fraud".

[Cannon Shell]

I think that Brother Derek should be classified as "one dimensional" as opposed to a "fraud". He needs the lead to be genuinely effective.

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

I think you're on to something, but if Bernardini happens to lose his next race, i would be willing to make a huge wager that Joel will NOT start a thread titled "Bernardini - Nothing but a Fraud".

Nope, because he isn't a fraud...its that simple...some horses have the substance and some don't.....Bernardini definately is a champion.....Brother Derek is a Benchmark Cal-bred that had a good ride and was treated like a champion when all the while he was winning very average races all spring....

Big difference here...Brother Derek could not warm up Bernardini and I knew that back in May...you can tell the goods and the 'frauds' when you see them....

If you want, I'll call some more 'overrated' horses (more politically correct i suppose than fraud):

1) Bordonaro when he faces the best sprinters
2) Lava Man when he runs outside of the West Coast
3) Fleet Indian when she faces any pace pressure at all
4) All American turf horses when they face the good Euros in the BC, especially The Tin Man
5) The entire handicap division when they face the best 3-year-olds (like Bernardini, Discreet Cat, etc.)
6) All of the 3-year-old fillies are horrible IMO and it will show when they face older mares in the Distaff
7) EZ Warrior and Principal Secret when they face real 2-year-olds form the East coast
8) Jazil when he faces the best of his generation (just like I thought of Steppenwolfer all year when I saw him lose an entry-level allowance race at LaDowns to a La-bred this past winter...plodders)
9) Aragorn and Miesque's Approval when they faces Euros in the BC Mile


...want more?

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

Nope, because he isn't a fraud...its that simple...some horses have the substance and some don't.....Bernardini definately is a champion.....Brother Derek is a Benchmark Cal-bred that had a good ride and was treated like a champion when all the while he was winning very average races all spring....

Big difference here...Brother Derek could not warm up Bernardini and I knew that back in May...you can tell the goods and the 'frauds' when you see them....

If you want, I'll call some more 'overrated' horses (more politically correct i suppose than fraud):

1) Bordonaro when he faces the best sprinters
2) Lava Man when he runs outside of the West Coast
3) Fleet Indian when she faces any pace pressure at all
4) All American turf horses when they face the good Euros in the BC, especially The Tin Man
5) The entire handicap division when they face the best 3-year-olds (like Bernardini, Discreet Cat, etc.)
6) All of the 3-year-old fillies are horrible IMO and it will show when they face older mares in the Distaff
7) EZ Warrior and Principal Secret when they face real 2-year-olds form the East coast
8) Jazil when he faces the best of his generation (just like I thought of Steppenwolfer all year when I saw him lose an entry-level allowance race at LaDowns to a La-bred this past winter...plodders)
9) Aragorn and Miesque's Approval when they faces Euros in the BC Mile


...want more?

Nope, thats plenty. I've got it now.
Champions = Horses that Joel says have the goods
Frauds = the rest

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

Nope, thats plenty. I've got it now.
Champions = Horses that Joel says have the goods
Frauds = the rest

If a horse carries a reputation that isn't near as good as his true ability - then isn't that classified as somewhat of a fraudulant or misleading notion to non-horse racing experts?

Food for thought.....

The best ever are horses like Funny Cide and Giacomo who capture so much national attention when they win the Derby and...well...I won't get into the rest but you know the story.....

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Seems like one could simply write about the horses they think are champs.Why write negative stuff about Grade One- Winning 3 year olds(Jazil,Brother Derek,and WLA.)

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

Seems like one could simply write about the horses they think are champs.Why write negative stuff about Grade One- Winning 3 year olds(Jazil,Brother Derek,and WLA.)

True....negativity is not great to report, but this runs deep because i knew this horse wasn't legitimate all along when EVERYBODY in the racing world was ready to lay the Roses over his withers before he even ran in the Derby (at least in the Spring they were)...

I'm pretty close to this situation knowing some of the connections, and watching him race and train I just knew he was "just a horse" - so to speak.....

Didn't mean to spread too much negativity...God knows we indeed do have more negativity in this game than any other game in the world....

[Dunbar]

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

Nope, because he isn't a fraud...its that simple...some horses have the substance and some don't.....Bernardini definately is a champion.....Brother Derek is a Benchmark Cal-bred that had a good ride and was treated like a champion when all the while he was winning very average races all spring....

Big difference here...Brother Derek could not warm up Bernardini and I knew that back in May...you can tell the goods and the 'frauds' when you see them....

If you want, I'll call some more 'overrated' horses (more politically correct i suppose than fraud):

1) Bordonaro when he faces the best sprinters
2) Lava Man when he runs outside of the West Coast
3) Fleet Indian when she faces any pace pressure at all
4) All American turf horses when they face the good Euros in the BC, especially The Tin Man
5) The entire handicap division when they face the best 3-year-olds (like Bernardini, Discreet Cat, etc.)
6) All of the 3-year-old fillies are horrible IMO and it will show when they face older mares in the Distaff
7) EZ Warrior and Principal Secret when they face real 2-year-olds form the East coast
8) Jazil when he faces the best of his generation (just like I thought of Steppenwolfer all year when I saw him lose an entry-level allowance race at LaDowns to a La-bred this past winter...plodders)
9) Aragorn and Miesque's Approval when they faces Euros in the BC Mile


...want more?

See, ArlJim? I was right about Lava Man and Invasor. And you were right that Bernardini is somehow exempt from the "fraud" label, regardless of whether he gets beaten next time out. I loved this CR line, comparing Bernardini to Brother Derek:

"Big difference here...Brother Derek could not warm up Bernardini and I knew that back in May...you can tell the goods and the 'frauds' when you see them...."

It reminds me of Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart's remark on defining pornography: "I know it when I see it." That may be the most laughed about Supreme Court quote in history, but CR is trying to outdo him. He can tell "fraudness" when he sees it.

--Dunbar

Well guys, looks as if "little Lord Fauntleroy" is mad beacuse he can't fool anyone into believing he actually knows what hes talking about anymore.
Little Lord and daddy will never own a grade one winner like Wonder Lady Anne L. And Little Lord Fauntleroy will forever have his nosed pressed up against the big shot window, slobbering over shiekhs an singing their praises, always hoping someday that he could actually accomplish something within the game, instead of just talking about it. But I think the odds of that are indeed slim.
Fraud is what I would label someone who can't ever handicap a race or predict a winner BEFORE it occurs. Fraud is someone who bashes guys like pletcher while acting indignant. A fraud a is a guy who bashes grade one winning horses while having never actually accomplished anything within the game whatsoever.
Someone wake me up when this "horse racing analyst" actually accomplishes something within the game, like Brother Derek's connections have.

By the way, anyone who is actually IN THIS GAME, knows that you never bash another horse or connections who has actually accomplished anything in this game. Its so very hard to ever get a grade one win, and they can't take em away.
In the Gold may have fallen off form this year, shes in a money allowance today. But last year she was grade one placed in some nice races and then won the Grade One Gazelle. Shes worth millions as a broodmare(going rate right now, rock bottom appraisal on grade one winning mares is 2.5 mill) and gave her owner breeder Live Oak a huge thrill.
There isn't any difference. Shes not what she was, but you can't take away what shes accomplished. Of coure Little Lord doesn't know anything about accomplishment, only flapping his gums. And thats what he will forever be doing, writing about the accomplishemnts of other people, after the race is over with.
Way to disprespect the owner and trainer of a grade one winner Joel, especially since the ****ing guys trains froom a wheelchair. You have zero class, zilch, none at this time.

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

I have to call into the question the whole notion of a horse being a fraud.
How exactly does that work?

Fraud is a relative term....I knew he was never as good as his hype earlier this year and it has shown in his last three starts....all I heard from the West coast was "he's the best 3-year-old out here since Sunday Silance" from the clockers - and I knew better...he never beat anyone earlier this year out there and I even told my man JJ, who was his rep, that I thought he was way overrated...and he showed once again that he is NOT one of the best of his generation like everybody wanted to lable him earlier this year...

I'd love to own him...no question about it....fraud may have been a harsh term but I meant it relatively - some of you should have understood that I ive turthful opinions...not trying to undermine the horse...I doubt he has feelings anyway

Kind of like Wonder Lady Anne L...she is a fraud...a Dutrow special that probably isn't of the caliber of 99% of the Grade 1 winners in the world, but she won one and that can't be taken from her....it is all relative...

Originally Posted by dr.fager

" Brother Derek is a fraud... "

that's kind of the way I feel about you on ATRAB

The don't listen