Gotham Stakes

[the_fat_man]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Alan Garcia thinks Taqarub can rate this weekend at Gulfstream. I tend to agree with him....he will rate....and run last. No disrespect, but I want to see speed types rate in a competitive horserace before I believe they can do it. Most of the time, they can't.

So, if the trainer gets Taqarub out there for a gate work in the morning with 3 of the fastest horses in his barn. And, has an exercise rider that can actually hold him. And Taqarub RATES. And you're out there watching it, you wouldn't believe it?

How about if Garcia were to shoot up some 'roids before the ride?

[Danzig]

it's not whether the rider can hold him, it's whether the horse is willing to do as he's told. no rider will fight a horse and win the battle-either the horse will relax, or he'll fight himself into exhaustion-which won't win him the race.

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by Danzig

it's not whether the rider can hold him, it's whether the horse is willing to do as he's told. no rider will fight a horse and win the battle-either the horse will relax, or he'll fight himself into exhaustion-which won't win him the race.

Rene Douglas thinks you're full of crap.

http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28075

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Rene Douglas thinks you're full of crap.

http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28075

lol
how will i go on??

[the_fat_man]

While I appreciate the lesson about the obvious, it's actually NOT as obvious as all that.

To get a horse to rate you do in fact need to RESTRAIN IT, in most cases against its will
but not how Douglas, Homeister, and countless others do it

the horse needs to be restrained without being choked out
we typically don't get this
what we get is the extremes: not enough hold or too much hold

though I suspect that if it were left up to the horses, we'd probably have some better run races --- couldn't be any worse

do the mofo's who train ever watch races or do they just go by what the (in most cases) idiot jocks tell them?
it's rhetorical

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by the_fat_man

While I appreciate the lesson about the obvious, it's actually NOT as obvious as all that.

To get a horse to rate you do in fact need to RESTRAIN IT
but not how Douglas, Homeister, and countless others do it

the horse needs to be restrained without being choked out

though I suspect that if it were left up to the horses, we'd probably have some better run races --- couldn't be any worse

the problem is, you have to have the horse willing to be restrained-and sometimes horses just will not do it, regardless of what's tried. but i'm sure you knew that already too.

Originally Posted by Danzig

the problem is, you have to have the horse willing to be restrained-and sometimes horses just will not do it, regardless of what's tried. but i'm sure you knew that already too.

No he did not.

Horses are live big short haired bicycles.

[Handicappy]

Originally Posted by the_fat_man

While I appreciate the lesson about the obvious, it's actually NOT as obvious as all that.

To get a horse to rate you do in fact need to RESTRAIN IT, in most cases against its will
but not how Douglas, Homeister, and countless others do it

the horse needs to be restrained without being choked out
we typically don't get this
what we get is the extremes: not enough hold or too much hold

though I suspect that if it were left up to the horses, we'd probably have some better run races --- couldn't be any worse

do the mofo's who train ever watch races or do they just go by what the (in most cases) idiot jocks tell them?
it's rhetorical

Add Santos to your notable list. Used to make me crazy.

[the_fat_man]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Rene Douglas thinks you're full of crap.

http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28075

Nice ride by Rene on Ash today.

[Handicappy]

Originally Posted by Danzig

it's not whether the rider can hold him, it's whether the horse is willing to do as he's told. no rider will fight a horse and win the battle-either the horse will relax, or he'll fight himself into exhaustion-which won't win him the race.

As an example of that, look at Mig's ride on Brilliant Son last Saturday in the stake. Mig, mistakenly (and for no apparent reason) tried to move him into a position he wasn't used to and he fought him. And, for that matter, look at the trainer/jock attempting to get Barcola out of his game in the same race. Both lost all chance at winning. Maturity continues to be the buzz word for me regarding this. Andy is correct regarding most speed horses not being able to rate in a race. I do think Mr. Fantasy is special precisely because he is a very intelligent/mature horse with only two ny bred races under his belt. I can't wait to get to the track!
It is exciting to go to the track to see a race that really will tell us something about the derby potential of many of these top three year olds. And with the weather in the 50's/without rain it will be a fair playing field for all.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by the_fat_man

So, if the trainer gets Taqarub out there for a gate work in the morning with 3 of the fastest horses in his barn. And, has an exercise rider that can actually hold him. And Taqarub RATES. And you're out there watching it, you wouldn't believe it?

How about if Garcia were to shoot up some 'roids before the ride?

Rating in workouts and rating in races are completely different scenerios. I have had VERY good exercise riders tell me their speedballs rated very comfortably in the morning......and then watched them fail miserably in the afternoon.

[the_fat_man]

Hmmmm

Maybe, then, it's not the horses that are failing.

[Handicappy]

Originally Posted by the_fat_man

Hmmmm

Maybe, then, it's not the horses that are failing.

It is the horses failing in many cases. It goes to a horses' maturity and intelligence. But training is totally different than a race and you can draw little from it. A horse capable of rating in the am can have significant difficulty in a race. And BTW is correct, speed balls seldom are capable of rating. Some joc's can tell when a horse doesn't need the lead. But I think many are so excited about the horses' potential or a mount from a well respected barn that they may exaggerate a bit. We will see this weekend and next at least from McLaughlin's two.

[the_fat_man]

Originally Posted by Handicappy

It is the horses failing in many cases. It goes to a horses' maturity and intelligence. But training is totally different than a race and you can draw little from it. A horse capable of rating in the am can have significant difficulty in a race. And BTW is correct, speed balls seldom are capable of rating. Some joc's can tell when a horse doesn't need the lead. But I think many are so excited about the horses' potential or a mount from a well respected barn that they may exaggerate a bit. We will see this weekend and next at least from McLaughlin's two.

I'm tired of all this status quo BS. I worked on the backstretch and I have a pretty good idea what can and what can't be done. I'm sick and tired of hearing bettors REPEATING what LAZY/INCOMPETENT horsemen have been spewing for years. Yes, I realize that horses can be difficult but I'm tired of hearing that horses can ONLY do this or that: needs the lead; is headstrong; doesn't want to run behind horses; won't run on the inside. BULL ****. Each horse should be treated as an individual (case). Spend enough time with a horse and 'strange' things happen.

Tell you an interesting story about a cheap old out-of-town claimer that eventually won a nice allowance race in NYC, at BEL, running 1:09 and change. Had a nice run for a while. It's funny that this was a need the lead type in all of his previous races. In fact, he was so aggressive, that you couldn't even WALK HIM BEHIND horses in the barn; he had to in front of them. YET, the trainer was able to get him to rate and win. Wonder why that was? Yeah, the horse has to 'cooperate' and the jock needs to have a clue BUT the trainer also needs to TEACH the horse. Can't be that difficult to do because I don't see too many INTELLECTUALS on the backstretch. Seems that even OLD GELDINGS can learn to do new things.

To get a sense of where this game is in terms of technology, compare the teams involved in other forms of racing, auto and bike, for example, the work involved in getting ready for a race, with the 'teams' (laughable) in horse racing. Time to really catch up with the times.

[Handicappy]

Originally Posted by the_fat_man

I'm tired of all this status quo BS. I worked on the backstretch and I have a pretty good idea what can and what can't be done. I'm sick and tired of hearing bettors REPEATING what LAZY/INCOMPETENT horsemen have been spewing for years. Yes, I realize that horses can be difficult but I'm tired of hearing that horses can ONLY do this or that: needs the lead; is headstrong; doesn't want to run behind horses; won't run on the inside. BULL ****. Each horse should be treated as an individual (case). Spend enough time with a horse and 'strange' things happen.

Tell you an interesting story about a cheap old out-of-town claimer that eventually won a nice allowance race in NYC, at BEL, running 1:09 and change. Had a nice run for a while. It's funny that this was a need the lead type in all of his previous races. In fact, he was so aggressive, that you couldn't even WALK HIM BEHIND horses in the barn; he had to in front of them. YET, the trainer was able to get him to rate and win. Wonder why that was? Yeah, the horse has to 'cooperate' and the jock needs to have a clue BUT the trainer also needs to TEACH the horse. Can't be that difficult to do because I don't see too many INTELLECTUALS on the backstretch. Seems that even OLD GELDINGS can learn to do new things.

To get a sense of where this game is in terms of technology, compare the teams involved in other forms of racing, auto and bike, for example, the work involved in getting ready for a race, with the 'teams' (laughable) in horse racing. Time to really catch up with the times.

I don't disagree but you are getting into a different area here. We are talking about 3 yr olds on the trail. Trainers don't tend to take the time or have the time to turn a horses' natural tendencies around. Owners press to see what kind of horse they have. An old gelding is an entirely different category of horse in this sense. Heck, I am not gelded but I'll be darned if I ain't more compliant with doing things a bit differently these days. More so than when I was younger and thought I knew everything.

[Linny]

Cappy has a point. It's one thing to work with an older horse that you claim and try to change is style, another to suddenly change a horse 7 weeks before the horses biggest career race. Would it have made sense in early march to have tried to teach Congaree or Spend a Buck or Affirmed to be a closer? You dance with what brought you at this point.

I agree that some horses can and do learn new tactics. Some never will. You might get them to rate kindly but they don't like the kickback or they find that they just don't like going out and passing horses. I have found that most speedball types are merely horses that don't care to change gears or paths in the middle of a race. They go as fast and as far as they can but they aren't adjustable and when you rate them they just gallop around.

What they do in the morning often doesn't translate into the real world in the afternoon. Some riders are pretty good at settling a horse without fighting, Ramon D and Calvin do a nice job taking a long hold.

[Sightseek]

Are entries drawn today?


Trivia time!

The Gotham was once a division of another race. What race was it, and at what distance was it run?