Andy Beyer, Dutrow, DRF

[gales0678]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Actually Mott did not move the horse up off of Hassinger originally as his first 4 races for Mott were actually far worse than his previous form had been for Hassinger. It wasn't until he ran the horse on dirt that he became Cigar. The sterility issue is very hard to blame specifically on Mott just as Lure or Saarlands issues are hard to place on Shug. I dont have skills like Drugs to post the pp's but he is probably not a classic example.

chuck wasn't cigar bred for the grass and that was why they kept putting him on the 'sod

who decide to try him on the dirt , did paulson ask mott to maybe try the dirt?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by gales0678

chuck wasn't cigar bred for the grass and that was why they kept putting him on the 'sod

who decide to try him on the dirt , did paulson ask mott to maybe try the dirt?

Cigar was bred for grass though he had broken his miaden on dirt with a pretty good number. His sire Palace Music was a turf runner though he never sired much other than Cigar. Cigar was running consistently in the upper 90's beyerwise for Hassinger and mid 70's for Mott. Interestingly enough he didnt race on Lasix when he came to NY but that excuse was blown out of the water by the two huge dirt races w/o lasix (the alw race and the NYRA mile)

[Travis Stone]

The talk about the sterile-issues and Mott and Cigar has been mentioned before.

To me the larger consideration is Cigar was allowed to grow into a horse. Imagine that, a horse. Today they're yanked off the track at 3-years-old. Who knows how good (or bad) some of the start 3YO's of the past decade or so would have been if given time to mature and develop.

Not that development is the only reason behind his ascent, but certainly would have to play a role.

Disclaimer: I'm a Cigar homer. His '95 BC was my first BC in person, and he's one of the main reasons why I'm in the game today.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by Travis Stone

The talk about the sterile-issues and Mott and Cigar has been mentioned before.

To me the larger consideration is Cigar was allowed to grow into a horse. Imagine that, a horse. Today they're yanked off the track at 3-years-old. Who knows how good (or bad) some of the start 3YO's of the past decade or so would have been if given time to mature and develop.

Not that development is the only reason behind his ascent, but certainly would have to play a role.

Disclaimer: I'm a Cigar homer. His '95 BC was my first BC in person, and he's one of the main reasons why I'm in the game today.

That's a good point, in addition having Jerry Bailey coming aboard after Mike Smith rode him to his first dirt win no doubt helped. Bailey in his book made a point of mentioning he was a very different horse on dirt than when he 1st rode him in a turf race at Belmont before the switch was made to dirt for the remainder of his career.

[sumitas]

The point has been made that Cigar was a drug freak turned sterile .

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by sumitas

The point has been made that Cigar was a drug freak turned sterile .

it has?

[AeWingnut]

Originally Posted by sumitas

The point has been made that Cigar was a drug freak turned sterile .

The point on top of your head has been made

[AeWingnut]

Originally Posted by Travis Stone

The talk about the sterile-issues and Mott and Cigar has been mentioned before.

To me the larger consideration is Cigar was allowed to grow into a horse. Imagine that, a horse. Today they're yanked off the track at 3-years-old. Who knows how good (or bad) some of the start 3YO's of the past decade or so would have been if given time to mature and develop.

Not that development is the only reason behind his ascent, but certainly would have to play a role.

Disclaimer: I'm a Cigar homer. His '95 BC was my first BC in person, and he's one of the main reasons why I'm in the game today.

Ditto

[gales0678]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Cigar was bred for grass though he had broken his miaden on dirt with a pretty good number. His sire Palace Music was a turf runner though he never sired much other than Cigar. Cigar was running consistently in the upper 90's beyerwise for Hassinger and mid 70's for Mott. Interestingly enough he didnt race on Lasix when he came to NY but that excuse was blown out of the water by the two huge dirt races w/o lasix (the alw race and the NYRA mile)

Chuck in your opinon what happened to make Cigar take off and become a champion after struggling , was it all due to a surface switch or is mott simply that much better than Hassinger

and did bailey blow the streak in del mar by cahsing too hot of a pace , letting Dare and Go come from behind

[sumitas]

It certainly appears a case has been made that cheating is still rampant in the sport . Remember that the leading trainers at Del Mar all had numerous positives and that Shapiro called that "shameful."

[Pedigree Ann]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

His sire Palace Music was a turf runner though he never sired much other than Cigar. )

Incorrect. If you had added 'In the Northern Hemisphere' you would have been right. But down under, he got multiple G1 and Derby winner Naturalism, Queensland Oaks winner Crystal Palace, G1 2yo Anthems, additional G1 winners Ready to Explode and Palace Line (in South Africa, sold as a yearling from Aus). All turf runners.

[robfla]

Palace Music sired 32 stakes winners from 15 crops, and was leading sire by progeny earnings in 1996.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by robfla

Palace Music sired 32 stakes winners from 15 crops, and was leading sire by progeny earnings in 1996.

Yeah with Cigar being 90% of that?

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Yeah with Cigar being 90% of that?

probably closer to 99.9% of that.